Dualism The (satire)
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07-08-2016, 03:43 PM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2016 04:53 PM by OrdoSkeptica.)
Dualism The (satire)
Dualism comes in several flavors but all of them directly clash with neurology by introducing spooky magic other substances that somehow magically account for all the stuff Duelist insist biology can't account for now without further ado

1. It just pure coincidence that the functions of the brain just so happen to near perfectly mirror mental states yup totally not the point of origin for the later just total coincidence the clear rational explanation for mental states is there a magic ghost living in a magic realm that somehow accounts for mental

2. It can't be that the "You'' is a collection of brain states and experience states generated by the brain and your interactions with the world .But a magic ghost that feels sadness etc and once again it's totally a coincidence that we can induce emotions chemically and those chemical states happen in sync with those emotions.

3. It's impossible that brains can think and feel because there just matter see rock can't feel and think therefore brains can't see perfect logic .

4. You evil evolutionist can't tell me step by step how this mental state evolved .Even thou it doesn't matter as the mechanism that generally drive evolution would apply here. But until you explain every step to my satisfaction my belief that some magic wizard did it by unknown means for some reason stands .

5. Of course proper brain function is needed it's not like we believe that souls can exist independent of bodies and see and hear and feel thin... oh wait

6. People have had NDA so there !. Even thou these experiences almost always contradict each other to a point were they seem more like personal hallucination rather then an objective alternate reality .

7. You can remake a brain in the lab so there it must be magic. Because if something in nature can't be replicated it must not be understood because being able to understand something and replicate it are the same thing.

8. You can't explain it therefore here my make believe explanation it's SO RATIONAL there is no evidence or anything BUT IT MAKES SENSE TO ME so it must be true.

Any i missed ?

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07-08-2016, 05:24 PM
RE: Dualism The (satire)
(07-08-2016 03:43 PM)OrdoSkeptica Wrote:  Dualism comes in several flavors but all of them directly clash with neurology by introducing spooky magic other substances that somehow magically account for all the stuff Duelist insist biology can't account for now without further ado

1. It just pure coincidence that the functions of the brain just so happen to near perfectly mirror mental states yup totally not the point of origin for the later just total coincidence the clear rational explanation for mental states is there a magic ghost living in a magic realm that somehow accounts for mental

2. It can't be that the "You'' is a collection of brain states and experience states generated by the brain and your interactions with the world .But a magic ghost that feels sadness etc and once again it's totally a coincidence that we can induce emotions chemically and those chemical states happen in sync with those emotions.

3. It's impossible that brains can think and feel because there just matter see rock can't feel and think therefore brains can't see perfect logic .

4. You evil evolutionist can't tell me step by step how this mental state evolved .Even thou it doesn't matter as the mechanism that generally drive evolution would apply here. But until you explain every step to my satisfaction my belief that some magic wizard did it by unknown means for some reason stands .

5. Of course proper brain function is needed it's not like we believe that souls can exist independent of bodies and see and hear and feel thin... oh wait

6. People have had NDA so there !. Even thou these experiences almost always contradict each other to a point were they seem more like personal hallucination rather then an objective alternate reality .

7. You can remake a brain in the lab so there it must be magic. Because if something in nature can't be replicated it must not be understood because being able to understand something and replicate it are the same thing.

8. You can't explain it therefore here my make believe explanation it's SO RATIONAL there is no evidence or anything BUT IT MAKES SENSE TO ME so it must be true.

Any i missed ?

The one I've seen, particularly by presuppositionalists, is that abstractions have to come from the supernatural since they are "immaterial". They can't be the product of a merely biological brain. This stems from a complete ignorance of concepts and how they are formed. It's a mystery to them so it must be not of this mundane, material world. It's funny that all the things they call "immaterial" are conceptual in nature so that when they say their god is "immaterial" what they are admitting is that it is a product of their mind and not real and concrete like a tree, a rock or a river.

They just can't handle the fact that consciousness is a type of biological activity just like digestion, respiration and the endocrine system and like all biological functions, it will cease at death. It frightens them, so they invent a fantasy that they are somehow more than just a biological organism and that the "more" part will live on after death. I don't see how, but this gives them comfort in some way, but it comes at a terrible price. They split man into two and this leads to a dichotomy in how they deal with "material" things on the one hand and "spiritual things" on the other. The practical result is that when the vast majority deal with nature, reason rules and we see enormous progress on the "material" front with science and technology, but when dealing with men, reason goes out the window and it's mysticism all the way. If you've ever wondered why we've made such progress technologically but not morally, I think this split is the reason. We have people now who have access to nuclear weapons and at the same time appeal to some mystical power for guidance when it comes to morality. I think if we don't fix this breach and fast, we are not going to survive much longer as a species.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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07-08-2016, 06:53 PM
RE: Dualism The (satire)


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07-08-2016, 07:18 PM
RE: Dualism The (satire)
Another problem i see is the term immaterial the thinking seems to be that if something isn't like a rock or a chair it must not be material .But why must things like measurably be the merit of what is material. And how would immaterialist know that something that is not material what standard would they employ.

For myself i reject the dichotomy of immaterial/material as poorly defined. And the standard comeback of "but my thought of a dog can't be measured like you can a car "
cuts it as proof that it's immaterial . only that it's not material like a chair

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08-08-2016, 09:00 AM
RE: Dualism The (satire)
(07-08-2016 07:18 PM)OrdoSkeptica Wrote:  Another problem i see is the term immaterial the thinking seems to be that if something isn't like a rock or a chair it must not be material .But why must things like measurably be the merit of what is material. And how would immaterialist know that something that is not material what standard would they employ.

For myself i reject the dichotomy of immaterial/material as poorly defined. And the standard comeback of "but my thought of a dog can't be measured like you can a car "
cuts it as proof that it's immaterial . only that it's not material like a chair


Calling something immaterial is a negative way of defining and it doesn't tell us what the thing is only what it is not. I prefer to use the term conceptual as a positive description of things like emotions and abstractions. Theist don't want to use this description because it gives up the game.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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08-08-2016, 04:54 PM
RE: Dualism The (satire)
But it dose leave us with a question of the nature of abstractions what are they comprised of ? .Are they patterns in the brain etc and when one thinks of a dog what is the image really? .Of course i reject that it's some spooky other substance just a thought really.[/align]

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08-08-2016, 06:52 PM
RE: Dualism The (satire)
(08-08-2016 04:54 PM)OrdoSkeptica Wrote:  But it dose leave us with a question of the nature of abstractions what are they comprised of ? .Are they patterns in the brain etc and when one thinks of a dog what is the image really? .Of course i reject that it's some spooky other substance just a thought really.[/align]

Abstraction is the way we Humans form open ended classes or concepts. It's how our minds identify and integrate the material our senses bring us. Abstraction is a type of conscious activity. I tend to think of concepts as mental entities. They are how we organize and retain knowledge. They aren't concretes like a rock or a tree. They are mental integrations of perceptual data. They are classifications of groups of similar things in terms of essential characteristics with their particular measurements omitted.

Concepts give us awareness of things beyond our immediate surroundings. They extend our minds and allow us to have knowledge of an unlimited number of like things. Consider the concept man. It not only subsumes the men we've seen but all men anywhere and at any time. Some day if a probe makes it to another star and reports that there are men there, We'll know some stuff about these men even though we haven't seen them.

If you ever run across someone who says "have you been all over the universe to look for God? No? Then how can you know it doesn't exist?", you can be sure you're talking to someone who doesn't understand the conceptual level of thought. I can know this the same way I know there are no square circles without having looked all over the universe and behind every asteroid where a square circle might be hiding. I know it by means of reason.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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11-08-2016, 06:30 AM
RE: Dualism The (satire)
Hi,

Some good posts on this thread on the theory of material reduction. Food for thought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

D.
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11-08-2016, 02:32 PM
RE: Dualism The (satire)
(11-08-2016 06:30 AM)Dworkin Wrote:  Hi,

Some good posts on this thread on the theory of material reduction. Food for thought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

D.

Good wiki (a few mistakes) but none the less good though i must admit i'm not a materialist i'm a neutral monist in substance and nature thou i accept on the evidence that brain function are mental functions even if duelist tools insist the two look to different to be the same the typical.

"My thoughts of a cat aren't material and there not just patterns in the brain"

Dispute the overwhelming evidence to the contrary

or the tired

"My brain isn't feeling emotions so what is ?"

Apparently the term composition fallacy and straw man don't click in there thick skulls not treating emotions as a whole process generated by complex biological processes which generate the experience of emotions .They just cheat and scream
SOULS .All the while whining that we have not explained to there satisfaction(because they will never be satisfied) how biological complexity generate phenomenon like emotions.Thou we have done A LOT of work on it there just to lazy of disingenuous to look it up .

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