Dualism and orgonomy
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02-10-2012, 08:59 AM (This post was last modified: 02-10-2012 08:00 PM by Chas.)
RE: Dualism
(02-10-2012 08:44 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(02-10-2012 06:45 AM)Chas Wrote:  Anti-woo extremist? Really? Blink

Really. Big Grin

(02-10-2012 06:45 AM)Chas Wrote:  You're saying that requiring evidence makes me extreme? Consider

What I am is extremely impatient with those who, even after decades of negative results, cling to an idea.

Lumi ain't got decades, and DeMeo seems to think he's on to something. Tongue


Oh, he's definitely on to something; a good scam.

James Demeo, author of The Orgone Accumulator Handbook, did his M.A. thesis on the Reich cloudbuster at the University of Kansas. He met with some faculty opposition but the degree was granted. He later did his Ph.D. work on a sociological and historical theory that all social problems — yes, all — including war, violence, injustice, patriarchial families, mental illness, environmental destruction, etc., are due solely to droughts and desertification. Dr. Demeo now makes his living doing lectures and workshops on Orgonomy all over the world, selling books and devices related to Orgonomy, and using his cloudbuster to “break droughts.” His “Drought Abatement Outreach Program” has been advertised in midwestern farm journals, and cloudbusting expeditions to bring rain have been paid for by drought-stricken farmers in Montana and elsewhere.
Dr. Demeo claims to be responsible for most of the rain that has fallen in California in recent years, although he is silent on the subject of liability for flood damage. He also claims to have made rain in Germany, Greece, Israel, Arizona, and various other places, all of which, he asserts, were in dire need of his services. In fact, he claims, the rapid spreading of deserts threatens to engulf the entire world and can only be fought with cloudbusters, which only he and his associates are qualified to utilize properly.
Demeo solicits donations to his “research fund” through a tax-exempt non-profit foundation he has set up. On at least one occasion funds contributed for one purpose seem to have been used for another purpose. He also is a partner in a commercial business venture using the cloudbuster. Currently, he is asking for $300,000 to establish a laboratory in northern California. He just might get it; his mentor and close associate, Dr. Richard Blasband, former President of the A.C.O., got $144,000, $48,000 of it from Lawrence Rockefeller via the Rockefeller Foundation, to do a study designed to prove the Orgone Accumulator violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
Demeo publishes articles in the Journal of Orgonomy frequently. But he also publishes his own journal, Pulse of the Planet, which documents his weather control activities and energetically denounces anyone who dares to criticize him. He has also published a number of pamphlets as well as the The Orgone Accumulator Handbook, but has not managed to get anything into the refereed scientific journals. He claims otherwise. He also claims expertise in an impressively (and impossibly) large number of fields. In fact, one gets a distinct impression from his resume that if Wilhelm Reich once wrote about it, James Demeo is an expert on it.
While much concerned with scientific respectability, Demeo also loses no opportunity to gain exposure to a “New Age” audience. He has been frequently published and interviewed in Wildfire, a magazine put out by the “Bear Tribe Medicine Society,” a new-age type cult of white middle-class converts to Native American religions founded by the late Sun Bear, a medicine man who was criticized by his fellow Indians for mass-marketing their religion and culture to white dilettantes. Demeo has been a teacher at their “Medicine Wheel Gatherings” and has received thousands of dollars in contributions from well-intentioned yuppies who think they are thereby helping the earth by funding his rainmaking work.
Another frequent outlet for Demeo’s promotional articles, interviews, and advertising for rainmaking services is Acres USA, a New Age farm journal published in Kansas City, with a circulation of about 10,000 midwestern farmers. Acres mixes radionics machines for improving crop yields and homeopathy for farm animals, with farm-oriented conspiracy theories and support for the Posse Commitatus movement. (The conspiracy is by government, banking, and big business against the farmer.) Some of their readers have hired Demeo to break droughts.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-10-2012, 01:32 PM
RE: Dualism
(01-10-2012 04:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  This is not the first time I have looked at this field. Your insinuation that I reject it without giving it a fair hearing and your accusation that mainstream scientists conspire to exclude these people are not only unfounded, they are ludicrous.

Scientists thrive on paradigm-busting results. Real scientists will put their results out there for criticism, knowing they might be wrong. Look at Fleischmann and Pons (cold fusion).
No conspiration necessary, all we need is money, competition and politics. I don't mean politics as elected, I mean thinking in terms of personal reputation and what might help it or harm it. This might start at the level of teaching, professors probably do not include orgonomy into class curricula, because they think it is irrelevant (bad reputation). So students will not even learn what it is. Even if interested, they'll be left to third-hand information that is hardly objective. Later they might hesitate to study orgonomy more officially and actively and will not bet their career on such a field of low reputation. This is no conspiracy, it's mainstream. I might just as well be paranoid about why radios don't play my favorite music, except a couple of independent internet stations. Of course, on the level of journals the politics must be much worse, there's more money.

I don't know how much you studied this field. It's all just you say so and you don't even say all that much. Don't tell me, show everyone or point me towards someone who already did the work. I want to know the truth, or better said, I want to denounce the bad orgonomists who do a poor job of researching the reality of etheric levels. I want to see their faults and oppose them if the opportunity comes. I don't want them to spread nonsense about chemtrails and "orgonite" plastic ingots.

Not all orgonomists out there are the same, JDM rejects conspiracy theories and misconceptions. He also faces much irrational critics and attacks on reputation. Even from such magazines as Skeptical Inquirer there seem to be articles based on personal attacks rather than rational evaluation.

(01-10-2012 04:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  Peer-reviewed journals want to publish the best, most interesting stuff, especially stuff that might rock the boat. But it has to have credible evidence. Look at the recent results in cosmology, that the universe is both flat and its expansion is accelerating. This is real science.
Evidence must be credible to get into journals. But journals lend credibility to the evidence. Ultimately, journals decide what is or isn't credible. Skeptics don't have time to go over obscure websites and visit obscure laboratories and conferences. If something is not in journals already, it's not credible and therefore it can't get into journals.
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02-10-2012, 02:55 PM (This post was last modified: 02-10-2012 02:58 PM by Vosur.)
RE: Dualism
(02-10-2012 01:32 PM)Luminon Wrote:  No conspiration necessary, all we need is money, competition and politics. I don't mean politics as elected, I mean thinking in terms of personal reputation and what might help it or harm it. This might start at the level of teaching, professors probably do not include orgonomy into class curricula, because they think it is irrelevant (bad reputation). So students will not even learn what it is. Even if interested, they'll be left to third-hand information that is hardly objective.
Speaking of objectivity, do you think that citing a single biased website is sufficient to make a case for a scientific theory? One day you may understand that being able to provide your opponent with a peer reviewed source is mandatory when debating about scientific topics.

That being said, you sound a lot like a Creationist when trying to justify the lack of peer reviewed papers for all the woo you've been promoting so far. Just replace "orgonomy" with "Creationism" in the cited paragraph and you'll know what I mean.

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02-10-2012, 03:08 PM (This post was last modified: 02-10-2012 04:06 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Dualism
(02-10-2012 05:44 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Dammit, Lumi! This ain't no origami thread! Big Grin

You know Chas enough to know he's an anti-woo extremist. This orgone stuff definitely reads like woo. It's a very small group of self-referencing researchers. Sure, mainstream science tends to be extremely conservative and exclusionist, but over time outside ideas do seep in. I mean, look at how long it took Higgs to get his particle.

If there's something to this orgone stuff, they just gotta keep hammering at it. Personally, I don't see it.
OK, sorry, just one more reply from Chas... Smile The thing is, I'm tired of getting no answer but "not good", without any explanation. Every dumb televangelist or psychic gets a whole skeptic podcast teams working through his garbage, but here the silence is deafening. Look, this is how a proper response looks like.
The public needs and wants to be educated, not to blindly follow brief and vague dismissive statements from self-appointed skeptics.

Personally, I don't see anything all that woo about it. Scientists should know that there are concentrated dark matter spheres around massive objects, like solar system or a planet.
JDM only says these spheres have effect on living organisms and physical properties of water, atmosphere, things like that, which is measurable. This substance underlies all matter, specially living bodies, like ours. And therefore it influences our health too. Which is not surprising, because all life we know evolved in it.
As I understand it, the problem is not in what is there, but what isn't in journals. And nobody from the outside can force journals to publish something, if they really don't want to. Or is there any higher instance to appeal?

(02-10-2012 02:55 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Speaking of objectivity, do you think that citing a single biased website is sufficient to make a case for a scientific theory? One day you may understand that being able to provide your opponent with a peer reviewed source is mandatory when debating about scientific topics.

That being said, you sound a lot like a Creationist when trying to justify the lack of peer reviewed papers for all the woo you've been promoting so far. Just replace "orgonomy" with "Creationism" in the cited paragraph and you'll know what I mean.
This comparison is quite weak. There is no such thing as a creationistic laboratory, measurement or experiment.
I guess I just want to see skeptics stop judging a book by its cover and show some honesty and fairness, by admitting a "weakness", I mean admitting that this is not a total crushing victory over woo in this case. I don't want to see judging a book by the cover, specially when it's not even a cover of a book, but of a journal (not) written by someone completely different with his own agenda. (for example, the Gardner critic has a hardcore Christian agenda) Or admit there is not enough data to make a proper judgement. FFSM, we are all allowed to say "I don't know" or "it's impossible to decide from the information we have" or "I can't find any scientific articles on this topic". C'mon, throw me a bone to chew on, I won't bite. If there aren't any, just say so. Just don't act all high and mighty, because nobody can both do a research and review himself. If that doesn't happen, then something is wrong on the other side.

It must be my sociologic gut speaking, but looks like we threw away our brains and let journals do our thinking. All unknown research is not judged by its own merits, but rejected by default, unless journals tell us about it first. Yet it works fine, until there comes a topic with a controversial history (but quite rational methods) and nobody is willing to give it a proper review. Any volunteers? I've seen how asking for volunteers usually works and as I said, the silence is deafening.
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02-10-2012, 04:17 PM
RE: Dualism
(30-09-2012 05:44 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(30-09-2012 03:56 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Most of us will agree it is hokum, but today I was all in "I'm dying" mode, and I got to thinking about my near-absolute lack of fear of death. I say "near" as I consider a somewhat dualist nature to human existence in the form of "me and my monkey." This because every once in a while there is a moment of anxiety thinking about death, which I consider as animal instinct for self-preservation bubbling up into my conscious awareness. I figure if it was up to me, I'd shut my hole and die already.

And I'm not subscribing to the thought of destiny - like how I'm a prophet and I'm supposed to be important - cause that's bullshit. But I keep flapping my gums, convinced that "fear of death" imposes a great burden on society and the Gwynnite death perspective has some value in rectifying such.

So is there some kinda monkey assed dualism, or what?
It is interesting what you say, because you should be impartial on this. All conclusions you come to, they shouldn't be religious or anything. If you don't fear death, then it gives hope to all people who don't subscribe to any weird beliefs. Did you read the last Hitchens' book or something? Do you have a whole philosophy to back you up, or just common sense? I heard Indians used to say, "when you realize you ride a dead horse, dismount." The world would be so much better place if people dismounted when their horses die. Or maybe it's something deeper, an abstract feeling in you that keeps you from fearing death. You tell me. (btw, did I miss a memo? Is your health all right?)

I never had that choice, so I can hardly imagine. From earliest age I had (and still have) strange but permanent physical perception of subtler and less visible material levels of the world. For me it was always obvious that there is a physical mechanism for dualism. And not just for me, I saw that this kind of perception can be taught to others and sometimes even randomly demonstrated outside.
I personally think this is dark matter sphere around Earth (partially dragged) that participates on living processes and that the independent research of it will be probably confirmed officially in decades to come.

But that's not the point. After a lifetime spent like that I almost can't imagine a non-dualistic life. I can hardly imagine how other people are doing, how can they live in a "this is all there is and that's it" world? Or why don't they actively search for scientific signs of a dualistic world?
But just as much, I am satisfied with nothing less than a solid hands-on experience, that jibes with other sources. I don't get why people develop these elaborate theories and beliefs about afterlife and dualistic world, having zero experience in the field. (Egor, for example) That is so... unsatisfying.
I am not opposed to the idea of non-existence. I experienced it once during meditation, when myself ceased to exist for a moment. (and it didn't feel bad) It's just that my other experiences say that this is not what happens after death, not right away anyway.

Maybe this is a dangerous line of thought (with Chas around) but skeptics have feelings too. Maybe they vehemently deny any possibility of an afterlife or dualistic world, because it's painful and dangerous. Dangerous, because you open your mind a little, then superstition crawls in and opens it all the way. So it's safer for our feelings not even to entertain the thought or seriously speculate about the mechanism. Except of some very lame mechanistic versions, like digital consciousness storage.

How did you differentiate your meditational "not bad" experience without experience?Consider
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02-10-2012, 04:38 PM
RE: Dualism
(02-10-2012 03:08 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(02-10-2012 05:44 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Dammit, Lumi! This ain't no origami thread! Big Grin

You know Chas enough to know he's an anti-woo extremist. This orgone stuff definitely reads like woo. It's a very small group of self-referencing researchers. Sure, mainstream science tends to be extremely conservative and exclusionist, but over time outside ideas do seep in. I mean, look at how long it took Higgs to get his particle.

If there's something to this orgone stuff, they just gotta keep hammering at it. Personally, I don't see it.
OK, sorry, just one more reply from Chas... Smile The thing is, I'm tired of getting no answer but "not good", without any explanation. Every dumb televangelist or psychic gets a whole skeptic podcast teams working through his garbage, but here the silence is deafening. Look, this is how a proper response looks like.
The public needs and wants to be educated, not to blindly follow bried dismissive statements from self-appointed skeptics.

Personally, I don't see anything all that woo about it. Scientists should know that there are concentrated dark matter spheres around massive objects, like solar system or a planet.
JDM only says these spheres have effect on living organisms and physical properties of water, atmosphere, things like that, which is measurable. This substance underlies all matter, specially living bodies, like ours. And therefore it influences our health too. Which is not surprising, because all life we know evolved in it.
As I understand it, the problem is not in what is there, but what isn't in journals. And nobody from the outside can force journals to publish something, if they really don't want to.

"Dark matter" is a catch-all phrase for whatever it is that might be affecting gravity , noted in the rotation of galaxies and galaxy clusters. It is not known if it is matter at all. One theory is that is an interaction between universes in a multiverse.

It is hard to take seriously something for which there is no credible evidence. The claims made, the energies that only the believers can detect, the instruments they use to 'detect' it, and so on, simply aren't credible. You go right ahead and study this stuff - I've looked and can find no reason to continue until something new happens, for example dark matter is identified and characterized as permeating space.

You are victimized in your search by gross confirmation bias; you can not see the evidence or lack thereof because you want this stuff to be true. That would confirm your supposed experiences. I don't care whether this stuff is true or not - that's the difference.

In the past, I have patiently tried to help you on a path to critical thinking and scientific knowledge, and even suggested ways you might seek evidence for your claims. But no more. You have accused me of intellectual dishonesty and lying.
So we're done, you ignorant, delusional, lazy, little fuckhead.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-10-2012, 04:41 PM
RE: Dualism and orgonomy
There you go, Lumi. Now it's an origami thread. Thumbsup

I think it is woo, but I also think Lumi operates with intelligence and a degree of skepticism. He's not coming across as a "woo peddler" but rather one whose personal experiences inspire fringe research. As as reality is still full of things that escape rational explanations, somebody's gotta scope the fringe.

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02-10-2012, 06:23 PM
RE: Dualism and orgonomy
Chas: I threw links at you and you didn't throw any back. I explained things, you didn't. All you say is "this simply isn't credible". But why and how exactly? Looks like you can't even express yourself. Educating people is more than telling them to conform and giving them shit if they don't. You gave your voice and judgement to the journals, without them you're nothing.

Btw, I did not accuse you of lying. As for dishonesty, this is something you have to answer for yourself, if there's anything about it. It sure bugs you.
Yes, I'm ignorant and more, but I also change. I already overcame big delusions of character all by myself and I'm ready for more. It always happened when I stopped projecting my faults reversedly at other people, stopped blaming them for pushing my buttons and observed my own behavior for months and years to find the blind spot in my own character, in the part I valued about myself the most. You might want to try it, although I would not wish you the final phase. The bigger blind spot you discover, the worse it gets. Don't do it unless you're really afraid of personal development stagnation and that's not reverse psychology, that's a health concern.

(02-10-2012 04:41 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  There you go, Lumi. Now it's an origami thread. Thumbsup

I think it is woo, but I also think Lumi operates with intelligence and a degree of skepticism. He's not coming across as a "woo peddler" but rather one whose personal experiences inspire fringe research. As as reality is still full of things that escape rational explanations, somebody's gotta scope the fringe.
Yes, this is exactly what I want! To inspire, inspire mainstream scientists to look at fringe research and fringe research to improve standards to make it to the mainstream. I must inspire, because I can't prove anything from where I am with what I have. Although should I meet a skeptic personally, I'd love to try a few experiments. I was always succesful with these.
Even if everything turns out to be false, I'd still have so much unexplained experiences under the belt to keep me restless and weirded out.

(02-10-2012 04:17 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  How did you differentiate your meditational "not bad" experience without experience?Consider
The sentence isn't very clear, but generally, I go by clear, repeated perception of weird phenomena and I disregard perception that isn't very high quality or could be interpreted naturally. I prefer when there are more people around and they independently report a similar or identic observation before I say anything. The best observations are those I do not want and do not expect. I can't want things to be true, because it produces lots of weak, false and predictable hits, that clog my perception.

Expect nothing, desire nothing, be at the right place, right time and be ready for anything. Then, it's just pure logic and admitting to myself if the experience wasn't good enough to take seriously and share with others. I've got enough of good observations anyway, some of which I would not want to repeat.
I already know it's all true, the only question is what the hell is the nature of all this Smile
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02-10-2012, 07:16 PM
RE: Dualism and orgonomy
(02-10-2012 06:23 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Chas: I threw links at you and you didn't throw any back. I explained things, you didn't. All you say is "this simply isn't credible". But why and how exactly? Looks like you can't even express yourself. Educating people is more than telling them to conform and giving them shit if they don't. You gave your voice and judgement to the journals, without them you're nothing.

Btw, I did not accuse you of lying. As for dishonesty, this is something you have to answer for yourself, if there's anything about it. It sure bugs you.
Yes, I'm ignorant and more, but I also change. I already overcame big delusions of character all by myself and I'm ready for more. It always happened when I stopped projecting my faults reversedly at other people, stopped blaming them for pushing my buttons and observed my own behavior for months and years to find the blind spot in my own character, in the part I valued about myself the most. You might want to try it, although I would not wish you the final phase. The bigger blind spot you discover, the worse it gets. Don't do it unless you're really afraid of personal development stagnation and that's not reverse psychology, that's a health concern.

You clearly are not remembering any of our previous discussions. I really didn't see the need to point to more criticisms of this field.
And you did imply that I was dishonest or lying when you said:
Quote:You clicked on the link only so many hours ago, but the authors spent decades in this field, working in the laboratory. And I have no way of checking how... reliably you went through this material.
I have spent a great deal of time in the past investigating this subject, as you should know from previous discussions.

And you can take your amateur psychoanalysis and shove it up your ass.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-10-2012, 07:29 PM (This post was last modified: 02-10-2012 07:34 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Dualism and orgonomy
(02-10-2012 07:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  And you can take your amateur psychoanalysis and shove it up your ass.

Personally, I wouldn't rely on his compliance. I'd turn his ass around and shove his amateur psychoanalysis bullshit up his ass myself. ... And I'd make him say he likes it, he likes it a lot. Evil_monster

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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