Dumb Atheist Sayings
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16-05-2016, 09:44 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 09:40 AM)jabeady Wrote:  I just don't see its utility. Any argument that has to be explained (and how much effort has gone into that very thing, just on this thread?) before the conversation can continue defeats it's own purpose. The Blank Slate argument is much better suited.

Oh crap!

I don't think there have been many significant conversations and debates in history with one-sentence arguments.

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16-05-2016, 10:00 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 09:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Lol, it’s not a dodge at all, it’s pointing out the fact that no logical contradiction can exist, when speaking of subjective concepts, just differences in opinions. You can’t claim a logical contradiction, while holding that objective moral facts do not exist.


Assume that a theist, a True Believer, is asking the question.
Your dodge is now invalid, since they believe in objective morality.

(16-05-2016 09:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If I hold that that a Perfectly Good Being can create a world in which evil, and suffering exists, did I make a factually incorrect statement? .


Until you provide evidence of your god, it is an irrelevant statement.

(16-05-2016 09:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You can disagree with my views regarding what ‘moral or not, but you can’t claim it’s logically contradictory for me to hold my differing views.

I do not recall saying your view was logically contradictory. I do recall asking for proof or evidence of objective morality. I'm still waiting.

(16-05-2016 09:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Yes, created things have a cause, hence why they’re referred to as created, duh. God is not a created thing, that’s a belief as old as it comes.

There are a multitude of religions that include gods being created. The easy one is the Greek gods. Greek Mythology talks of the birth of the entire pantheon.

Until you provide some evidence that your god is real, then your fables are no better than anyone else's.

(16-05-2016 09:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A common atheist tendency, is when called out on their strawman renditions of theist arguments, is rather that acknowledging that they erred, is to claim that the theist redefined their argument.

A common theist tendency, is when called out on their strawman renditions of atheist arguments, is rather that acknowledging that they erred, is to claim that the atheist redefined their argument.

Fixed it for you. And all I have to do to prove that is to quote some of your posts.

(16-05-2016 09:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The brain ... patterns.

That was impressively meaningless and nonsensical.


(16-05-2016 09:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  To hold free-will (or something remarkably like it) does not exist, and believe otherwise is a logical contradiction.

Like the mystery of the trinity?
Like free-will and predestination?

Apparently your god is fond of logical contradictions...

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16-05-2016, 10:25 AM (This post was last modified: 16-05-2016 10:52 AM by jabeady.)
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 09:44 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  I don't think there have been many significant conversations and debates in history with one-sentence arguments.

Plenty of sentences can follow the Blank Slate, precisely because almost everybody knows at the outset what it means. It also has the virtue of being neutral by definition and is thus unburdened by emotional baggage. Saying a baby is "atheist" is virtually assured to raise hackles and the conversation gets mired at that point. Since you're probably introducing infant atheism in response to a claim involving Natural Religion, you'll almost certainly never get back to the main topic. The Blank Slate, OTOH, is immediately pertinent to the main discussion.



Oh crap!
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16-05-2016, 10:28 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 10:00 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  I do not recall saying your view was logically contradictory. I do recall asking for proof or evidence of objective morality. I'm still waiting…..Until you provide evidence of your god, it is an irrelevant statement.


If you’re appealing to the problem of evil, than you’re explicitly stating that.

If the statement, that a perfectly good being can create a world in which evil, and suffering exists, is not factually incorrect, than there’s is no logical contradiction. The problem of evil, as commonly appealed to by atheists, to claim it’s a logically contradiction goes away.

Quote:Assume that a theist, a True Believer, is asking the question.
Your dodge is now invalid, since they believe in objective morality.

Then this true believer would be believing in a different God than I do, but you’re not that believer. Nor would the follow up questions I would propose to that theists apply to you.

Quote:There are a multitude of religions that include gods being created. The easy one is the Greek gods. Greek Mythology talks of the birth of the entire pantheon.

Not in relationship to a theistic conception of God, in which we’re referring to a creator God. Theists like Christians have always believed in a God that’s uncreated, so have the philosophers and thinkers that created the cosmological argument, all of which presupposes an uncreated cause.

Maybe the question of who created god, might be applicable if you’re speaking to some pagan I guess, who believes in some god that was created, in those instances the question might be excusable, but clearly not when directed at christians, muslims, jews etc.. who believe in an eternal God, an uncreated one.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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16-05-2016, 10:31 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
Another thread hijacked by ol' TommyBoy to spout off his bullshit on morality.

You ever going to go back to the last thread you abandoned, TommyBoy? Drinking Beverage

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16-05-2016, 10:59 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 10:31 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Another thread hijacked by ol' TommyBoy to spout off his bullshit on morality.
...

(16-05-2016 06:26 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  ...
Except that’s not the cosmological argument, it’s a common but stupid atheist rendition of it. The cosmological argument is that everything that is continent must have a cause.
...

@TBD,
I think he's suffering from some kinda cosmological incontinent disorder.

@Tommy.
Pst ... 'contingent'.

Rolleyes

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16-05-2016, 11:00 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 10:59 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(16-05-2016 10:31 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Another thread hijacked by ol' TommyBoy to spout off his bullshit on morality.
...

(16-05-2016 06:26 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  ...
Except that’s not the cosmological argument, it’s a common but stupid atheist rendition of it. The cosmological argument is that everything that is continent must have a cause.
...

@TBD,
I think he's suffering from some kinda cosmological incontinent disorder.

@Tommy.
Pst ... 'contingent'.

Rolleyes

I think he's suffering from a severe case of religiously-inspired narcissism. Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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16-05-2016, 11:26 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 04:34 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(16-05-2016 12:05 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  But babies also lack knowledge of any god concept at all, and indeed most likely lack the ability to even conceive of any god-concept, and in that sense, their unbelief is irrelevant.

Emphasis mine.

That is exactly what I've been trying to say all along. I've said it like, three times in this thread? Their unbelief is not irrelevant because the point isn't to have babies on our side (yay, more atheists?) but to demonstrate that religion and the concept of god are taught and they don't come naturally, as most theists tend to believe. We talk about babies (and not 5 or 10 year old kids) because we start being indoctrinated the very moment we are born.

Yeah, but I'm not weighing in on one side or the other of the argument, which is why there's a qualification of some length in front of the text you had emphasized. I was trying to rephrase one side of this discussion so that the other might actually see it a little clearer.

I obviously failed in that respect.
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16-05-2016, 11:37 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 06:26 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:The problem with this analogy is that a lot of cosmological arguments insist on the premise that everything must have a cause, and it is against these arguments that the question is useful.

Except that’s not the cosmological argument, it’s a common but stupid atheist rendition of it. The cosmological argument is that everything that is contingent must have a cause.

I recognize that distinction, and even thought of pointing it out myself -- but I don't think it really saves the argument. Sneaking the word "contingent" in there amounts to pre-defining God as the uncaused cause. So your conclusion is already built into your premise. And that's not much of an argument (see "circular argument", "begging the question", etc.).

Anyway, I would even question the statement that everything that is contingent requires a cause (see "quantum mechanics"), unless you define "contingent" as "requiring a cause" -- in which case we're back in paragraph one.
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16-05-2016, 11:39 AM (This post was last modified: 16-05-2016 11:44 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 05:41 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No the problem is that if morality if subjective, and the theists claims that the God of the bible is perfectly Good, and an atheist thinks he's not, it would be a subjective disagreement, not a logical contradiction.

Not so, it's not nearly so vague. One of the Commandments is "Thou shall not murder" -- yet the murders laid at your god's feet in the Bible are numerous.

Assuming for the sake of argument the Christian premise that their god is omnimax and omnibenevolent, and that he is the Author of Morality, it can be objectively demonstrated that he violates his own rules and is by his own definition evil.

None of that means I actually accept moral objectivity. It means that if you do, you must explain these contradictions. This is obviously why you're wriggling around so energetically. FYI, pointing your finger and saying, "You're not allowed to see these contradictions because you can't make judgments" is not an explanation, it's a dodge.

Yardsticks can be metered in inches, centimeters, hands, cubits, or any other unit you choose. They all still measure distance. Simply because morality is subjective doesn't mean that judgments cannot be made.
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