Dumb Atheist Sayings
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16-05-2016, 12:04 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 11:39 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(16-05-2016 05:41 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No the problem is that if morality if subjective, and the theists claims that the God of the bible is perfectly Good, and an atheist thinks he's not, it would be a subjective disagreement, not a logical contradiction.

Not so, it's not nearly so vague. One of the Commandments is "Thou shall not murder" -- yet the murders laid at your god's feet in the Bible are numerous.

Assuming for the sake of argument the Christian premise that their god is omnimax and omnibenevolent, and that he is the Author of Morality, it can be objectively demonstrated that he violates his own rules and is by his own definition evil.

None of that means I actually accept moral objectivity. It means that if you do, you must explain these contradictions. This is obviously why you're wriggling around so energetically. FYI, pointing your finger and saying, "You're not allowed to see these contradictions because you can't make judgments" is not an explanation, it's a dodge.

Yardsticks can be metered in inches, centimeters, hands, cubits, or any other unit you choose. They all still measure distance. Simply because morality is subjective doesn't mean that judgments cannot be made.

I'll anticipate his dodge. The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" says that we (humans) are not allowed to kill. It says nothing about what God is allowed to do. He is "beyond good and evil" (to quote Nietzsche). Furthermore, what it really means is "murder" (rather than "kill") -- as you acknowledge in your statement of the commandment. Most Christians and other theists (and by implication their God as well) will accept some forms of killing ("just war", capital punishment, self-defense, etc.) as long as they are not murder. They will then argue that none of God's killings fall under the "murder" category. He always has a good reason for killing -- we just don't know what it is.

It is notoriously hard to pin a Christian down on the problem of evil, and I don't find it all that convincing even as an atheist. I don't believe in God, but the problem of evil is not the reason for that.
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16-05-2016, 12:10 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
Is it my imagination, or has this thread descended into chaos?

Oh crap!
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16-05-2016, 12:25 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 12:04 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(16-05-2016 11:39 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Not so, it's not nearly so vague. One of the Commandments is "Thou shall not murder" -- yet the murders laid at your god's feet in the Bible are numerous.

Assuming for the sake of argument the Christian premise that their god is omnimax and omnibenevolent, and that he is the Author of Morality, it can be objectively demonstrated that he violates his own rules and is by his own definition evil.

None of that means I actually accept moral objectivity. It means that if you do, you must explain these contradictions. This is obviously why you're wriggling around so energetically. FYI, pointing your finger and saying, "You're not allowed to see these contradictions because you can't make judgments" is not an explanation, it's a dodge.

Yardsticks can be metered in inches, centimeters, hands, cubits, or any other unit you choose. They all still measure distance. Simply because morality is subjective doesn't mean that judgments cannot be made.

I'll anticipate his dodge. The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" says that we (humans) are not allowed to kill. It says nothing about what God is allowed to do. He is "beyond good and evil" (to quote Nietzsche). Furthermore, what it really means is "murder" (rather than "kill") -- as you acknowledge in your statement of the commandment. Most Christians and other theists (and by implication their God as well) will accept some forms of killing ("just war", capital punishment, self-defense, etc.) as long as they are not murder. They will then argue that none of God's killings fall under the "murder" category. He always has a good reason for killing -- we just don't know what it is.

It is notoriously hard to pin a Christian down on the problem of evil, and I don't find it all that convincing even as an atheist. I don't believe in God, but the problem of evil is not the reason for that.

They define their god as not being evil, meaning that they have to do apologetic acrobatics to argue that the shit their god does is moral even if it is immoral if a human does it. And all the while they maintain that morality is objective even though they've defined a subjective system where god can do a thing and it's moral, but man can do the same thing and it's immoral.

The contradiction is lost on them Drinking Beverage

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16-05-2016, 12:27 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 12:10 PM)jabeady Wrote:  Is it my imagination, or has this thread descended into chaos?

Oh crap!

It has sort of gotten away from the original point, but that was inevitable. As soon as you start listing "dumb atheist sayings", there are bound to be people arguing "that's not dumb -- it's true" about some statement or other on the list. No way to avoid it.
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16-05-2016, 12:42 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 11:39 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(16-05-2016 05:41 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No the problem is that if morality if subjective, and the theists claims that the God of the bible is perfectly Good, and an atheist thinks he's not, it would be a subjective disagreement, not a logical contradiction.

Not so, it's not nearly so vague. One of the Commandments is "Thou shall not murder" -- yet the murders laid at your god's feet in the Bible are numerous.

Assuming for the sake of argument the Christian premise that their god is omnimax and omnibenevolent, and that he is the Author of Morality, it can be objectively demonstrated that he violates his own rules and is by his own definition evil.

None of that means I actually accept moral objectivity. It means that if you do, you must explain these contradictions. This is obviously why you're wriggling around so energetically. FYI, pointing your finger and saying, "You're not allowed to see these contradictions because you can't make judgments" is not an explanation, it's a dodge.

Yardsticks can be metered in inches, centimeters, hands, cubits, or any other unit you choose. They all still measure distance. Simply because morality is subjective doesn't mean that judgments cannot be made.

Now, you moved away from the problem of evil. The problem of evil is based on exclusively on the existence of evil in the world, and the common attribute of Goodness to God. Epicurus clearly didn't have christianity in mind when he proposed it.

The structure of the argument presupposes that the claim that a perfectly Good God would not allow evil to exists, as a true statement. Which wouldn't be true for anyone who believe morality is subjective, in which it's neither a true or false statement.

The argument you want to have here, by appealing to the bible, is in regards to supposed biblical contradictions, which likely would mean more for a fundie evangelical than myself. But involves a whole slew of consideration regardless, particularly in regards to biblical interpretations, and what any particular believers views of the bible are.

But if you're using portrayals of the God character in passages of the bible, arguing against omnibenevolence would be the weakest case to be made, in fact you'd have better arguing against omniscience, starting with the book of Genesis, where God didn't realize that flooding the world, was futile, that it didn't resolve the problem he thought it would. But regardless appealing to biblical contradictions are not what the problem of evil is about. It's about the existence of evil in our world, not in regards to fictional stories of the bible.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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16-05-2016, 01:13 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
Being influenced after being born doesn't make "You are born as an atheist" wrong.

The moment you come out of your mom, you don't know about any god, therefore: Atheist/Neutral.

You make it seem like atheist is something you become, when it's just a silly word for a neutral stance made to make theist sound like an equally intelligent stance.
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16-05-2016, 01:16 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 12:42 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Now, you moved away from the problem of evil. The problem of evil is based on exclusively on the existence of evil in the world, and the common attribute of Goodness to God. Epicurus clearly didn't have christianity in mind when he proposed it.

No. Biblical writings and other church teachings and scriptures are an integral part of the discussion. If you throw out the bible, then your god is whatever you want it to be.

Who originated the argument is also pointless. The problem of evil applies to christianity and any other religion that posits a god with the three Omni's. People like St. Thomas Aquinas, Agustine of Hippo, Martin Luther and John Calvin all debated the subject and considered it an issue for christianity and the bible.

On what authority do you throw it out?

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16-05-2016, 01:22 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
How about when someone sneezes and an atheist says "bless you"? I am not an atheist but I assume that could grind some people's gears.

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16-05-2016, 01:26 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 01:16 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  No. Biblical writings and other church teachings and scriptures are an integral part of the discussion. If you throw out the bible, then your god is whatever you want it to be.

Who originated the argument is also pointless. The problem of evil applies to christianity and any other religion that posits a god with the three Omni's. People like St. Thomas Aquinas, Agustine of Hippo, Martin Luther and John Calvin all debated the subject and considered it an issue for christianity and the bible.

On what authority do you throw it out?

As I said the problem of evil, by definition, is about the existence of evil in our world, and whether not this negates the idea of Omnibenevolence.

You can go on all you want, as Dawkins does, about the OT picture of God being the most "most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak", while leaving the question completely untouched. Because it's not what the problem is about.

If you were appealing to the bible, to suggest that the Christians God wouldn't allow evil to exist in our world, that might be relevant, but other than that it's not.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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16-05-2016, 01:54 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 01:22 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  How about when someone sneezes and an atheist says "bless you"? I am not an atheist but I assume that could grind some people's gears.

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Not me. It's an expression embedded in our culture, that's all. I also say god damn it, god willing, for the love of god, etc. I grew up saying these things, as did most others in the west. I see no reason why anyone should attempt to censor or erase their cultural roots. If nothing else, it requires mental and emotional resources that could be more effectively spent elsewhere.

Oh crap!
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