Dumb Atheist Sayings
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
16-05-2016, 01:54 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 01:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  As I said the problem of evil, by definition, is about the existence of evil in our world, and whether not this negates the idea of Omnibenevolence.

The Problem of Evil, by definition, applies to christianity. Greater minds than yours have recognized this and debated it.

(16-05-2016 01:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You can go on all you want, as Dawkins does, about the OT picture of God being the most "most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak", while leaving the question completely untouched. Because it's not what the problem is about.

Actually, that's exactly what it's about. Christians posit a loving god while their bible depicts a sadistic tyrant.

(16-05-2016 01:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If you were appealing to the bible, to suggest that the Christians God wouldn't allow evil to exist in our world, that might be relevant, but other than that it's not.

You have claimed to be a christian pastor. If you don't want to defend your own holy books, that's up to you.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Fatbaldhobbit's post
16-05-2016, 01:55 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 01:54 PM)jabeady Wrote:  
(16-05-2016 01:22 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  How about when someone sneezes and an atheist says "bless you"? I am not an atheist but I assume that could grind some people's gears.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk
Not me. It's an expression embedded in our culture, that's all. I also say god damn it, god willing, for the love of god, etc. I grew up saying these things, as did most others in the west. I see no reason why anyone should attempt to censor or erase their cultural roots. If nothing else, it requires mental and emotional resources that could be more effectively spent elsewhere.

Oh crap!
I used to have an atheist roommate who would say "science bless you" when I sneezed. It was funny at the time.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-05-2016, 02:26 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 01:54 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
Quote:As I said the problem of evil, by definition, is about the existence of evil in our world, and whether not this negates the idea of Omnibenevolence.

The Problem of Evil, by definition, applies to christianity. Greater minds than yours have recognized this and debated it.

The problem of evil applies to pretty much anyone who believes in an Omnibenevolent God, christian or otherwise, and the existence of evil in our world. It applies to Christian only because christians believe that God is omnibenvllent, and evil exists in our world. It's perhaps one of the few near universal beliefs among christians, regardless of how christians understand the bible.

Quote:
(16-05-2016 01:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You can go on all you want, as Dawkins does, about the OT picture of God being the most "most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak", while leaving the question completely untouched. Because it's not what the problem is about.

Actually, that's exactly what it's about. Christians posit a loving god while their bible depicts a sadistic tyrant.

No, that's exactly what the problem of evil is not about. It's not about the depiction of God in the bible, but the existence of evil in the world. In fact you would be doing exactly what you accused me of doing, redefining the problem of evil, to make this argument of yours work.

Quote:You have claimed to be a christian pastor. If you don't want to defend your own holy books, that's up to you.

You must be confusing me with someone else, because I'm not a pastor, nor have I ever claimed to be.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-05-2016, 04:31 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 04:31 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(15-05-2016 05:31 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  No argument here. Theists typically invoke the soul to try and pass that balderdash off. I'm fine with, "We are not born believers." It's unassailable short of invoking the supernatural. Stating what we are born is fraught with problems.

I'll focus on this because that's what matters in the end.

We do agree that we cannot tell when a baby becomes a person and I can understand your point with dogs.
And yes, it's much better to say that we are not born believers, but I could claim that this phrase is problematic too, saying that not being a believer makes you a non-believer and babies cannot be born non-believers, because to be a non-believer, you need to know belief, or have the capacity for belief. That's why I think we're splitting hairs here.

Not quite splitting hairs. There's an important difference between "a baby is not a believer" and "a baby is a non-believer" in much the same way that there is the critical difference between "I don't beleive in god" and "I believe that god is not." The former makes no statement about what the baby is, whereas the latter does.

If the baby is a blank slate, a squalling bundle of instincts, then the former is accurate but the latter is dubious. It implicitly suggests that babies aren't atheists either, but no problem since babies aren't anything. They're disqualified from consideration until they do something more interesting than smell of sour milk and a diaper that needs changing.

Quote:The problem is that we seem to have a different understanding of the word "atheist".

No, I accept your definition. Our disagreement is on when a person begins.

Quote:Now, is your problem with the phrase or the argument itself?

The phrase, specifically the term "born". The flesh that houses my mind was born. The thinking part of me that calls itself "me" emerged from the marvel that is the human brain interacting with its environment. The "I" in "I think, therefor I am" was never born. "I" grew within this flesh. I sometimes wonder if this is what religion and mysticism was groping toward when they blundered into souls and spiritualism but that's an entirely different thread.

Quote:Because the specific phrase (we are all born atheists) is not the exact one everyone would use for this argument.
And there is an argument there. Perhaps it cannot stand on its own, but try mentioning Buddhists. Most of them are atheists. They didn't become atheists, but the concept of god was never introduced to them. How can a Christian talk about souls then?

I would never dream of suggesting that there isn't a very valid argument there. The nonsense with being born a believer (or worse, a belieber *shudder*) is patently ridiculous. Bury it face down at a crossroad with a stake through its heart.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Paleophyte's post
16-05-2016, 04:46 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 01:22 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  How about when someone sneezes and an atheist says "bless you"? I am not an atheist but I assume that could grind some people's gears.

I suppose it could but you'd have to have pretty thin skin. I view those as idioms that we've inheretted from Christianity that come in handy regardless of the original meaning. In the same vein I'd have a difficult time giving up "Jesus Christ!" and "Goddammit!"

"Jesus fucking Christ withing on the cross!" to make sure you have their undivided attention.

I have jokingly warned people to be careful of how they employ their blessings since the last person who tried that contracted the pox but only amongst friends who already get my sense of humour.

What does it even *mean* if an atheist says "Bless you"? With what are you being blessed?

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-05-2016, 04:57 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 04:46 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  What does it even *mean* if an atheist says "Bless you"? With what are you being blessed?

His presence?



Oh crap!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-05-2016, 05:14 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 12:04 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(16-05-2016 11:39 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Not so, it's not nearly so vague. One of the Commandments is "Thou shall not murder" -- yet the murders laid at your god's feet in the Bible are numerous.

Assuming for the sake of argument the Christian premise that their god is omnimax and omnibenevolent, and that he is the Author of Morality, it can be objectively demonstrated that he violates his own rules and is by his own definition evil.

None of that means I actually accept moral objectivity. It means that if you do, you must explain these contradictions. This is obviously why you're wriggling around so energetically. FYI, pointing your finger and saying, "You're not allowed to see these contradictions because you can't make judgments" is not an explanation, it's a dodge.

Yardsticks can be metered in inches, centimeters, hands, cubits, or any other unit you choose. They all still measure distance. Simply because morality is subjective doesn't mean that judgments cannot be made.

I'll anticipate his dodge. The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" says that we (humans) are not allowed to kill. It says nothing about what God is allowed to do.

In which case the logical conclusion is that morality is indeed relative and/or subjective, and undermines the argument that religion is required for moral behavior.

(16-05-2016 12:42 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Now, you moved away from the problem of evil. The problem of evil is based on exclusively on the existence of evil in the world, and the common attribute of Goodness to God. Epicurus clearly didn't have christianity in mind when he proposed it.

Firstly, it's not contingent on the existence of this or that religion being extant when the argument was formulated. What is contingent is that Christians claim a timeless and omnipresent god -- meaning that the principles of the argument should hold even if the religion itself hasn't been invented.

(16-05-2016 12:42 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  The structure of the argument presupposes that the claim that a perfectly Good God would not allow evil to exists, as a true statement. Which wouldn't be true for anyone who believe morality is subjective, in which it's neither a true or false statement.

No, the argument assumes that a good entity with omnipotence wouldn't suffer evil to exist in his or her own creation; a safe assumption, I'd say. A perfectly good entity which could create anything exactly as it pleases bears responsibility for the creation, wouldn't you think? I mean, a Perfect Carpenter doesn't build crooked cabinets. A Perfect Carpenter builds perfect cabinets.

Whether or not I subscribe to moral objectivity is irrelevant. The fact is that hundreds of millions do, while at the same time according moral subjectivity to the deity of their choice.

(16-05-2016 12:42 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  The argument you want to have here, by appealing to the bible, is in regards to supposed biblical contradictions, which likely would mean more for a fundie evangelical than myself. But involves a whole slew of consideration regardless, particularly in regards to biblical interpretations, and what any particular believers views of the bible are.

Oh, I'm sorry. I had thought you adhered to Biblical Christianity. I didn't realize you considered the Bible itself errant.

(16-05-2016 12:42 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  But if you're using portrayals of the God character in passages of the bible, arguing against omnibenevolence would be the weakest case to be made, in fact you'd have better arguing against omniscience, starting with the book of Genesis, where God didn't realize that flooding the world, was futile, that it didn't resolve the problem he thought it would.

Of course. I wasn't arguing that the Problem of Evil is the only problem the Christian god has. I was arguing that citing it is not a stupid thing for an atheist to say.

(16-05-2016 12:42 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  But regardless appealing to biblical contradictions are not what the problem of evil is about. It's about the existence of evil in our world, not in regards to fictional stories of the bible.

Way to miss the point. When the attributes of the god in question are contradicted by the book used to propound faith in that god, the obvious conclusion is that any faith in the teachings of that book is misplaced. Again, the PoE is a matter of holding believers to their own claims -- and the qualities of their deity and the actions ascribed to him are both claims which contradict each other, meaning that their god doesn't even meet his own standards. If the Christian god is the author of morality, then morality is subjective given his own alleged actions. If the Christian god is not the author of morality, then he is not omnipotent.

As for evil in the real world, please don't appeal to free will, since there can be no such thing in the face of an omnimax god.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-05-2016, 05:46 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 02:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You must be confusing me with someone else, because I'm not a pastor, nor have I ever claimed to be.

My apologies. Must be getting my threads crossed.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-05-2016, 05:07 AM (This post was last modified: 17-05-2016 05:24 AM by Tomasia.)
Dumb Atheist Sayings
(16-05-2016 05:14 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Firstly, it's not contingent on the existence of this or that religion being extant when the argument was formulated. What is contingent is that Christians claim a timeless and omnipresent god -- meaning that the principles of the argument should hold even if the religion itself hasn't been invented.

Yes the principles of the argument hold as long as there are folks who believe in an Omni-God, and evil exists in his creation. That's the only set of beliefs required, nothing else.

Quote:No, the argument assumes that a good entity with omnipotence wouldn't suffer evil to exist in his or her own creation; a safe assumption, I'd say.

What matters here is whether you're making a factual statement, to claim that the belief in an good omnipotent God, that allows evil to exists in his creation, is a logical contradiction.

Is it or is it not a logical contradiction to hold that belief?


Quote:A perfectly good entity which could create anything exactly as it pleases bears responsibility for the creation, wouldn't you think? I mean, a Perfect Carpenter doesn't build crooked cabinets. A Perfect Carpenter builds perfect cabinets.

What sort of painting would a perfect artist paint? Would he be more like Thomas Kincaid, or more like George Watts? Which painting is the closest to perfection "A Mother's Perfect Day" or "Hope"?

Quote:Whether or not I subscribe to moral objectivity is irrelevant.

It's entirely relevant if you want to claim that it's logically contradictory to hold to a belief in a Good and all powerful God, who allows evil to exist in his creation

Quote: I didn't realize you considered the Bible itself errant.

I'm not a fundie evangelical, so I don't subscribe to the sort of beliefs reserved almost exclusively to that group.

Quote:Of course. I wasn't arguing that the Problem of Evil is the only problem the Christian god has. I was arguing that citing it is not a stupid thing for an atheist to say.

[....]Way to miss the point. When the attributes of the god in question are contradicted by the book used to propound faith in that god, the obvious conclusion is that any faith in the teachings of that book is misplaced. Again, the PoE is a matter of holding believers to their own claims -- and the qualities of their deity and the actions ascribed to him are both claims which contradict each other, meaning that their god doesn't even meet his own standards.

It's as stupid as when a theist in an argument over the theory of evolution, attempts to lump in abiogenesis, and how the universe came about as part of the ToE.

The parameters of the problem of evil, the particular beliefs in question, what those beliefs relate to are defined in the argument itself. It deals exclusively with a belief in a Good and all powerful God, and evil existing in his creation.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-05-2016, 05:50 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(17-05-2016 05:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The parameters of the problem of evil, the particular beliefs in question, what those beliefs relate to are defined in the argument itself. It deals exclusively with a belief in a Good and all powerful God, and evil existing in his creation.

So I take it that either you assert that your God is not good, that he is not all powerful, or that evil does not exist in his creation?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like morondog's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: