Dumb Atheist Sayings
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19-05-2016, 12:59 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(19-05-2016 12:49 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  [quote]However, when you consider the Christian God specifically, the entire Bible narrative is utterly preposterous, and so is basic Christian theology. All you have to do is read the Bible with an open mind, and it is "self-evident" (to use your own phrase) that this is fiction, and for large parts of it, it is also self-evident who stands to gain from this fiction -- and that would be the priests who wrote much of it. As a "true" story of how God relates to humans, it makes no sense at all. I was raised as a Christian (Catholic, to be specific), and swallowed it all (my childhood ambition was to be a priest) until I got old enough to start thinking about it and questioning it.

While this might be a common thing that other ex-christians and other christians might share with you, I can’t say that I relate to it.

Though I went to church on Sundays, and I believed in God, I couldn’t say that I had any formed views in regards to christianity, or christian theology. Our church didn’t particularly invest that much into insuring their kids had a proper religious education. And the adults and pastors who in other churches might have been proactive in this effort, spoke an entirely different language. And their concerns and efforts were almost exclusively devoted to the adults, transitioning to a life in a different country.

My young Sunday school teachers, went over some bible story, and then tested you to see if you can remember the character’s wife, or how many children they had etc… All of which was fairly rudimentary and forgettable. No one really told me you have to read this story this particular way, or understand this element this way or that, or think of Sansom as a historical person, or to believe the world was only a few thousand years old, etc… So I didn’t have the sort of beliefs other might have had, to later on to go that’s preposterous. I was surrounded by all the words and symbols of Christianity, the meanings of which eluded me.

And I moved away to join the military by the time I was 18, and was concerned more about finding a girlfriend, than religion, or going to church. I only really consider Christianity when I was already in my mid twenties, after reading The Brother’s Karamazov, and at this point was well outside of any particular christian community.

So there’s likely a variety of things that might have been common in your religious upbringing, and views, that might not be particularly relatable to me, and my circumstances.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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19-05-2016, 01:17 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(19-05-2016 09:59 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  How does a specific religion indoctrinate people? You've already explained it detail, they present to you a version of reality that makes it literally impossible for you to believe any other alternative ("I don't know how not to believe").

I don't know the details of your childhood, and don't care. Your specific religious experience is highly unlikely to be different than most.

There you go again. What version of reality did they present to me, that made it literally impossible for me to believe any alternatives? I grew up in a church where the adults and pastors, barely spoke the same language as their children, so what version of reality where they presenting me with?

Is this a common element in our religious experiences?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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19-05-2016, 01:26 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(19-05-2016 01:17 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-05-2016 09:59 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  How does a specific religion indoctrinate people? You've already explained it detail, they present to you a version of reality that makes it literally impossible for you to believe any other alternative ("I don't know how not to believe").

I don't know the details of your childhood, and don't care. Your specific religious experience is highly unlikely to be different than most.

There you go again. What version of reality did they present to me, that made it literally impossible for me to believe any alternatives? I grew up in a church where the adults and pastors, barely spoke the same language as their children, so what version of reality where they presenting me with?

Is this a common element in our religious experiences?

"What version of reality did they present to me, that made it literally impossible for me to believe any alternatives?"

I don't know, you're the one that said that it wouldn't be possible for you to not believe. The details of your religious indoctrination and brainwashing aren't important. I don't know (or care) if it was a radical cult of Christianity or a more mainstream sect.

"I grew up in a church where the adults and pastors, barely spoke the same language as their children, so what version of reality where they presenting me with? "

Religious indoctrination. That's the whole fucking point.

"Is this a common element in our religious experiences?"

You don't realize that religions preach religious indoctrination? Shocking

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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19-05-2016, 01:31 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(19-05-2016 12:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-05-2016 12:49 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:However, when you consider the Christian God specifically, the entire Bible narrative is utterly preposterous, and so is basic Christian theology. All you have to do is read the Bible with an open mind, and it is "self-evident" (to use your own phrase) that this is fiction, and for large parts of it, it is also self-evident who stands to gain from this fiction -- and that would be the priests who wrote much of it. As a "true" story of how God relates to humans, it makes no sense at all. I was raised as a Christian (Catholic, to be specific), and swallowed it all (my childhood ambition was to be a priest) until I got old enough to start thinking about it and questioning it.

While this might be a common thing that other ex-christians and other christians might share with you, I can’t say that I relate to it.

Though I went to church on Sundays, and I believed in God, I couldn’t say that I had any formed views in regards to christianity, or christian theology. Our church didn’t particularly invest that much into insuring their kids had a proper religious education. And the adults and pastors who in other churches might have been proactive in this effort, spoke an entirely different language. And their concerns and efforts were almost exclusively devoted to the adults, transitioning to a life in a different country.

My young Sunday school teachers, went over some bible story, and then tested you to see if you can remember the character’s wife, or how many children they had etc… All of which was fairly rudimentary and forgettable. No one really told me you have to read this story this particular way, or understand this element this way or that, or think of Sansom as a historical person, or to believe the world was only a few thousand years old, etc… So I didn’t have the sort of beliefs other might have had, to later on to go that’s preposterous. I was surrounded by all the words and symbols of Christianity, the meanings of which eluded me.

And I moved away to join the military by the time I was 18, and was concerned more about finding a girlfriend, than religion, or going to church. I only really consider Christianity when I was already in my mid twenties, after reading The Brother’s Karamazov, and at this point was well outside of any particular christian community.

So there’s likely a variety of things that might have been common in your religious upbringing, and views, that might not be particularly relatable to me, and my circumstances.

Does everything being permitted bother you?

You always seem to curb things towards a morality and a notion of it being objective or there being a purpose. Or somehow relative to some worldview concept as if all people should think a worldview is important self evidently.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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19-05-2016, 01:38 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(19-05-2016 08:43 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You do realize the other option is that I fucked your mother, right? Drinking Beverage

You should probably step away from this subject because it's making it clear that you don't understand context.

My mom's a senior citizen, so while technically you might have fucked her, she definitely ain't popping out no babies.

The more likely option is that I fucked your wife, lol.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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19-05-2016, 01:44 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(19-05-2016 05:13 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-05-2016 02:03 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  "Self-evident" is another way of saying "because I said so."

No, self-evident means, "not needing to be demonstrated or explained; obvious."

My parents also took it as self-evident, they saw no need to demonstrate or explain to me that God exists, because they saw it as obvious.

A variety of research shows that children are prone to teleological beliefs, believing in a purposeful order, even children raised in non-religious homes. The reasons for why it appeared self-evident likely has more to do with these natural inclinations, than someone "saying so".

... which is a long-winded way of saying that you are imposing your personal filters onto the matter and imputing inability to others when in actual fact they may simply be more curious than you are, yourself.

Some folk are comfortable asking questions; others, less so. :shrug:
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19-05-2016, 01:45 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(19-05-2016 12:49 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  When atheists ask for evidence of God, it never seems to be all that clear what any particular atheists is asking for.

Physical, testable, verifiable evidence usually. As opposed to the bullshit mindgames, logical fallacies and delusions theists usually provide. That has been mentioned, on multiple occasions.

(19-05-2016 12:49 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Only obstructed by the fact that there’s a variety of atheists, like Jerry Coyne, and Dawkins who would say that they can’t think of any type of evidence that would lead them to such a conclusion.

An omni-god would probably know the best kind of evidence, wouldn't it?
If one existed that is.

(19-05-2016 12:49 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  The brain process a variety of information taken in by variety of sensory inputs, and draws inferences from this. It doesn’t seem to me that many atheists will agree with the statement, that all the data or information, the brain draws these inferences from in regards to what’s true or not, constitutes as evidence. So the criteria is bit more restrictive than that.

This illustrates one of your basic flaws.

Evidence is verifiable and factually accurate.

There is a rock.
Five scientists can examine the rock, weigh it, measure it, study it. They do this individually then compare notes. If all the data reads the same, that's evidence.

Five theists can look at the rock, tell stories about it, pray over it, repeat the stories their ancestors told about it and proclaim that it came from the heavens and is a gift from god. This does not count as evidence.

(usually, then the theists will find a nonbeliever and throw the rock at him, but that's an issue for another thread...)

(19-05-2016 12:49 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  But what does this mean in terms of getting me to not believe?

Unless you're talking about it here, or inflicting it in a public school, I don't give a rodent's rectum what you believe.

(19-05-2016 12:49 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I’d have to believe that I can only hold what is true, based on specific kind of criteria, and the parameters common to atheists such as yourself, and pledge to lack a belief in anything outside of those parameters.

That specific kind of criteria would be factual, verifiable evidence. Since your senses and perceptions could be fooled, you want others to be able to verify your evidence.

The more things you believe without evidence, the more likely you are to harm yourself and those around you.

And seriously, don't you think it's a bit childish, to keep on with the "atheists such as yourselves" bit?

(19-05-2016 12:49 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I’d have to sort of subscribe to a variety of presuppositions common to folks such as yourself, and one’s that I don’t currently hold.

You do understand what a presupposition is, don't you?
How about apistevist?

I consider myself an apistevist, and I believe that many of the atheists here are as well. (I'll let them speak for themselves though.) But as an atheist and apistevist,

I make one and only one, presupposition:

The universe that I exist in is both consistent and understandable.

That's it. As a theist, you have to make a number of them such as:

Your god exists.

Your god created you.

Your god cares about you.

Your god and his minions can change reality to suit their will.
(That invalidates science, btw. If reality is mutable, no evidence is valid.)

The holy texts, at least some of them, are correct.

The minions, prophets, priests, etc. are honest and sincere.
(Look how well that turns out...)

That your personal experience is accurate and true, even if it conflicts with personal experiences of other believers.

Should I continue?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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19-05-2016, 01:50 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
God exists because it's obvious.

Jesus Tommy, when you lay it out so nakedly and simply, who can help but believe? Rolleyes

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-05-2016, 01:51 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
Calling it obvious means you should be able to break it down. What makes it so goddamn obvious, sunshine?

It's obvious to me that you haven't got the foggiest clue.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-05-2016, 01:59 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(19-05-2016 01:45 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  You do understand what a presupposition is, don't you?
How about apistevist?

I consider myself an apistevist, and I believe that many of the atheists here are as well. (I'll let them speak for themselves though.) But as an atheist and apistevist,

I make one and only one, presupposition:

The universe that I exist in is both consistent and understandable.

That's it. As a theist, you have to make a number of them such as:

Your god exists.

Your god created you.

Your god cares about you.

Your god and his minions can change reality to suit their will.
(That invalidates science, btw. If reality is mutable, no evidence is valid.)

The holy texts, at least some of them, are correct.

The minions, prophets, priests, etc. are honest and sincere.
(Look how well that turns out...)

That your personal experience is accurate and true, even if it conflicts with personal experiences of other believers.

Should I continue?

I labelled it the presuppositional stack. If anyone of these presuppostions are not true, then you're just making stuff up and the house of cards collapses.

The believers only recourse is to redefine terms, ignore evidence, twist everything they see to make it fit their presuppostions no matter how intellectually vapid and/or dishonest it makes them.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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