Dumb Atheist Sayings
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24-05-2016, 10:28 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 09:59 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Until you prove a purposeful cause, natural causes are all that we have.

It's interesting that alternative to purposeful cause for you, is not an appeal to purposeless causes, but an appeal to natural causes. As if natural causes can't be teleological. My iPhone is product of a variety of natural causes, yet a teleological object.


Quote:Unless you provide evidence, your unsubstantiated beliefs are no different than any other unsubstantiated belief.

In your view is the alternative claim that life is ultimately purposeless, and nihilistic, an unsubstantiated belief as well? Or is it only unsubstantiated when holding otherwise?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-05-2016, 10:38 AM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2016 10:41 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 09:49 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  You just formulated a rationale for an unfalsifiable viewpoint. :face palm:

It's only as unfalsifiable as it's alternative, that it's all purposeless. Only as unfalsiables as the claim that the life has no intrinsic meaning or purpose

Quote:Would you also apply that same rationale for all of the species that have went extinct in several mass extinction events?

I apply it to the totality here. It's something I'm saying about the whole, mass extensions, death, tragedy, suffering, pain, love, joy, hope, etc.. are all part of the whole.

Quote:You use a lot of subjective terms based from primate emotions, how does this viewpoint apply to non-primate species that don't have human emotions?

Again, see above.

Quote:Please provide a concise explanation without Chopraisms that explain mass extinction events and how those precisely fulfill the role of purpose from a deity.

I have no idea what the question means. Why not just throw the holocaust in there? Is purpose something than can only be attributed to sanguine portraits of the world?

And I have a question for you. When you contemplate your life, as opposed to mass extinction events, does it seem purposeless to you?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-05-2016, 10:50 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 10:38 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And I have a question for you. When you contemplate your life, as opposed to mass extinction events, does it seem purposeless to you?

This question wasn't directed at me, but I'll bet many here would give the same answer I'm going to give. Ultimately, yes, my life is purposeless. 10 years after my death, only a handful of people will remember who I was. 100 years later, nobody will know or care that I ever existed. And when the sun expands and incinerates the earth, nothing that I or anyone else ever did will matter at all. While I'm alive, my life has whatever purpose I choose to give it. But ultimately, it has no purpose at all. And I'm OK with that.
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24-05-2016, 10:50 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 10:38 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 09:49 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  You just formulated a rationale for an unfalsifiable viewpoint. :face palm:

It's only as unfalsifiable as it's alternative, that it's all purposeless. Only as unfalsiables as the claim that the life has no intrinsic meaning or purpose

Quote:Would you also apply that same rationale for all of the species that have went extinct in several mass extinction events?

I apply it to the totality here. It's something I'm saying about the whole, mass extensions, death, tragedy, suffering, pain, love, joy, hope, etc.. are all part of the whole.

Quote:You use a lot of subjective terms based from primate emotions, how does this viewpoint apply to non-primate species that don't have human emotions?

Again, see above.

Quote:Please provide a concise explanation without Chopraisms that explain mass extinction events and how those precisely fulfill the role of purpose from a deity.

I have no idea what the question means. Why not just throw the holocaust in there? Is purpose something than can only be attributed to sanguine portraits of the world?

And I have a question for you. When you contemplate your life, as opposed to mass extinction events, does it seem purposeless to you?

I find it interesting you would ask someone that... and the way you talk and others have over morality always pushes oddly. It's like a strange notion that Nihilism is 1 thing and not multiple defined meanings. The notions of moral nihilism is separate from all together nihilism.

To your questions notion, Individuals may just be forced to create their own meaning, to pull it out of their own consciousness to make sense and motivation in their lives. But nothing of that contrasts a notion of intrinsic meaning existing nor does it lessen or develop the notion of anything being meaningful to a "real" grand sense.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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24-05-2016, 10:52 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 09:52 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Lacking a believe of what? What is the contrast of lacking a believe in purposefulness and not thinking there is a strong case for purposefulness?

For one, you can lack a belief for a variety of reasons, thinking there is not a strong case might or might not be the reason.

Perhaps you look at life, and find yourself unable to commit to one view or the other, purposeful, or purposeless, and prefer to lack a belief in regards to the question itself.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-05-2016, 10:53 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 10:38 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 09:49 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  You just formulated a rationale for an unfalsifiable viewpoint. :face palm:

It's only as unfalsifiable as it's alternative, that it's all purposeless. Only as unfalsiables as the claim that the life has no intrinsic meaning or purpose

Quote:Would you also apply that same rationale for all of the species that have went extinct in several mass extinction events?

I apply it to the totality here. It's something I'm saying about the whole, mass extensions, death, tragedy, suffering, pain, love, joy, hope, etc.. are all part of the whole.

Quote:You use a lot of subjective terms based from primate emotions, how does this viewpoint apply to non-primate species that don't have human emotions?

Again, see above.

Quote:Please provide a concise explanation without Chopraisms that explain mass extinction events and how those precisely fulfill the role of purpose from a deity.

I have no idea what the question means. Why not just throw the holocaust in there? Is purpose something than can only be attributed to sanguine portraits of the world?

And I have a question for you. When you contemplate your life, as opposed to mass extinction events, does it seem purposeless to you?

There is no inherent purpose. the idea of saying there is a purpose is applying a subjective term to existence.

You have talked in vague terms about purpose, define this purpose without Chopraisms and then show evidence for it. Drinking Beverage

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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24-05-2016, 10:55 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 10:50 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 10:38 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And I have a question for you. When you contemplate your life, as opposed to mass extinction events, does it seem purposeless to you?

This question wasn't directed at me, but I'll bet many here would give the same answer I'm going to give. Ultimately, yes, my life is purposeless. 10 years after my death, only a handful of people will remember who I was. 100 years later, nobody will know or care that I ever existed. And when the sun expands and incinerates the earth, nothing that I or anyone else ever did will matter at all. While I'm alive, my life has whatever purpose I choose to give it. But ultimately, it has no purpose at all. And I'm OK with that.

THAT is the fundamental honesty and acceptance of reality that deified explanations of life lack. Thumbsup

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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24-05-2016, 11:18 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 10:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's interesting that alternative to purposeful cause for you, is not an appeal to purposeless causes, but an appeal to natural causes. As if natural causes can't be teleological. My iPhone is product of a variety of natural causes, yet a teleological object.

Until you prove a purposeful cause, there is only natural. I require physical, scientific evidence as described above.

(24-05-2016 10:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  In your view is the alternative claim that life is ultimately purposeless, and nihilistic, an unsubstantiated belief as well? Or is it only unsubstantiated when holding otherwise?

Purposeless and nihilistic are essentially the same thing.
It is also the default position, until a purpose is demonstrated.

You apparently do not understand the concept of the burden of proof.

You claim a purpose. You apparently cannot or will not provide the required evidence to convince us that your claim is true.

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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24-05-2016, 11:23 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 11:18 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 10:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's interesting that alternative to purposeful cause for you, is not an appeal to purposeless causes, but an appeal to natural causes. As if natural causes can't be teleological. My iPhone is product of a variety of natural causes, yet a teleological object.

Until you prove a purposeful cause, there is only natural. I require physical, scientific evidence as described above.

(24-05-2016 10:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  In your view is the alternative claim that life is ultimately purposeless, and nihilistic, an unsubstantiated belief as well? Or is it only unsubstantiated when holding otherwise?

Purposeless and nihilistic are essentially the same thing.
It is also the default position, until a purpose is demonstrated.

You apparently do not understand the concept of the burden of proof.

You claim a purpose. You apparently cannot or will not provide the required evidence to convince us that your claim is true.

Reading through his posts, I think this is his idea of purpose:

(24-05-2016 10:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I apply it to the totality here. It's something I'm saying about the whole, mass extensions, death, tragedy, suffering, pain, love, joy, hope, etc.. are all part of the whole.

Which is just about as meaningless as you can get.

We're back to redefining words in ways that makes them useless. Facepalm

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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24-05-2016, 12:09 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 10:53 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  There is no inherent purpose. the idea of saying there is a purpose is applying a subjective term to existence.

Yet, claiming there is no inherent purpose, is not applying a subjective term to existence?

The arbitrary rule you seem to suggesting here, is that we cannot apply terms like inherent purpose to the universe,

Quote:You have talked in vague terms about purpose, define this purpose without Chopraisms and then show evidence for it. Drinking Beverage

So what is it, either there's a rule that dictates that the concept of purpose can't be applied to the universe or there isn't? If there is, then the question of evidence wouldn't be applicable?

So what is it, either I can apply a concept like purpose to the universe, or by rule I can't? If it's the latter then no evidence would be applicable, and the question meaningless.
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