Dumb Atheist Sayings
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24-05-2016, 12:10 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 09:45 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 09:37 AM)Chas Wrote:  Your incredulity is not evidence nor is it the least bit compelling.
All of the evidence from the physical universe supports natural causes.


Purposeful causes don't necessarily negate natural causes. The question is whether or not the evidence of our physical universe support nihilism, purposelessness. The argument for which are not only far from compelling, very few, even among unbelievers seem to believe it is. They're more comfortable lacking a belief instead.

Comfortable? Yes, I am more comfortable with evidence-based theories than pie-in-the-sky assumptions.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-05-2016, 12:21 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 11:18 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Purposeless and nihilistic are essentially the same thing.
It is also the default position, until a purpose is demonstrated.


Of course you're just appealing to some arbitrary rule of your own making. I wonder if you realize that? What governing authority made it the default position?

Views like yours, are parts of the variety of presuppositional beliefs often held with fidelity to support one's atheism. But meaningless in and of themselves.

Quote:You apparently do not understand the concept of the burden of proof.

The burden of proof falls on the party attempting to convince the other party of their position. If two parties have a position that they each want to convince the other of, whether that be the life is just meaningless noise, or serving some ultimate purpose, both of them would have the burden of proof to convince the other.

If neither party is interested in convincing the other, the burden of proof does not apply. This may be another arbitrary rule, but at least we can agree on this one.

Quote:You claim a purpose. You apparently cannot or will not provide the required evidence to convince us that your claim is true.

I don't believe you can be convinced, and I'm not particularly concerned with convincing you. I'm more interested in the background beliefs of folks such as yourself, than convincing you of what I believe. I don't expect you to convince me of whatever it is you believe in either.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-05-2016, 12:24 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 12:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  Comfortable? Yes, I am more comfortable with evidence-based theories than pie-in-the-sky assumptions.

Would you say you're more comfortable with objective observations of life, than subjective ones? That you're more comfortable thinking of life in terms of gears and mechanism, than any other way, which you might relegate to pie-in-the-sky assumptions?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-05-2016, 12:26 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 12:09 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 10:53 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  There is no inherent purpose. the idea of saying there is a purpose is applying a subjective term to existence.

Yet, claiming there is no inherent purpose, is not applying a subjective term to existence?

The arbitrary rule you seem to suggesting here, is that we cannot apply terms like inherent purpose to the universe,

Quote:You have talked in vague terms about purpose, define this purpose without Chopraisms and then show evidence for it. Drinking Beverage

So what is it, either there's a rule that dictates that the concept of purpose can't be applied to the universe or there isn't? If there is, then the question of evidence wouldn't be applicable?

So what is it, either I can apply a concept like purpose to the universe, or by rule I can't? If it's the latter then no evidence would be applicable, and the question meaningless.

You are using incoherent and arbitrary concepts to describe something tangible, what "purpose" means is arbitrary, you have to define the concept coherently enough to apply it to tangible things in a consistent manner.

You fail to do that. Drinking Beverage

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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24-05-2016, 12:29 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 10:50 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  This question wasn't directed at me, but I'll bet many here would give the same answer I'm going to give. Ultimately, yes, my life is purposeless. 10 years after my death, only a handful of people will remember who I was. 100 years later, nobody will know or care that I ever existed. And when the sun expands and incinerates the earth, nothing that I or anyone else ever did will matter at all. While I'm alive, my life has whatever purpose I choose to give it. But ultimately, it has no purpose at all. And I'm OK with that.

Ignoring the ultimate part here, currently would you say your life has purpose, even it ultimately doesn't? Is it important for you, that your life has a purpose?

What purpose have you chosen to give your life? If so, did you choose that, or did it in some sense choose you?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-05-2016, 12:52 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 12:29 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 10:50 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  This question wasn't directed at me, but I'll bet many here would give the same answer I'm going to give. Ultimately, yes, my life is purposeless. 10 years after my death, only a handful of people will remember who I was. 100 years later, nobody will know or care that I ever existed. And when the sun expands and incinerates the earth, nothing that I or anyone else ever did will matter at all. While I'm alive, my life has whatever purpose I choose to give it. But ultimately, it has no purpose at all. And I'm OK with that.

Ignoring the ultimate part here, currently would you say your life has purpose, even it ultimately doesn't? Is it important for you, that your life has a purpose?

What purpose have you chosen to give your life? If so, did you choose that, or did it in some sense choose you?

I'm happier when I'm working toward some sort of goal, but those goals are mostly short-term, and they change frequently. I cannot think of any one overriding "purpose" for my life. I tend to work on whatever interests me at the time. Right now, I'm working on improving my chess game, so that I don't lose so often at tournaments. But that is certainly of no importance for anyone but me, and a month from now, I'm very likely to be working on something else.

And "did it in some sense choose you" sounds like woo. I don't want to get into an argument about free will, but whether we choose things or they choose us has little or nothing to do with whether or not our lives "have a purpose". Shit happens, and there will come a time (sun swallows up the earth) when none of it will matter.
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24-05-2016, 12:55 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 12:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 11:18 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Purposeless and nihilistic are essentially the same thing.
It is also the default position, until a purpose is demonstrated.

Of course you're just appealing to some arbitrary rule of your own making. I wonder if you realize that? What governing authority made it the default position?

Whenever a claim is made, the default position has to be unbelief. Supporting evidence has to be provided in order to move from disbelief to belief. If one begins from the position of belief you will immediately begin by holding contradictory beliefs.

The governing body is Rational Thinking. This is not arbitrary or of my own making.

I stand here unbelieving in any god.
You claim the Christian god.
A muslim claims the muslim god.
A Buddhist claims Buddha is god.

It would be rational to assume no belief until or unless one of you proves a god.

If I start out believing all claims until they are disproven, then you immediately hold irrational, irreconcilable beliefs.

(24-05-2016 12:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Views like yours, are parts of the variety of presuppositional beliefs often held with fidelity to support one's atheism. But meaningless in and of themselves.

To put it delicately, you are completely full of shit. Rationality makes one presupposition:

The universe that we exist within is both understandable and consistent.

But, we've had this conversation before haven't we?

(24-05-2016 12:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If neither party is interested in convincing the other, the burden of proof does not apply. This may be another arbitrary rule, but at least we can agree on this one.

This is not a website soapbox for you to spout your nonsense. If you make claims here, people like myself will demand you back them up. If you make false statements, you will be called out. Logical fallacies will be corrected. You get the idea.

(24-05-2016 12:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don't believe you can be convinced, and I'm not particularly concerned with convincing you.

I've told you what would convince me. High standards of evidence does not equate to a closed mind. That is the realm of dogma and religion.

(24-05-2016 12:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm more interested in the background beliefs of folks such as yourself, than convincing you of what I believe. I don't expect you to convince me of whatever it is you believe in either.

You seem more interested in telling us what we believe and in making blanket generalizations that support your presuppositions.

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24-05-2016, 01:08 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 12:26 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  You are using incoherent and arbitrary concepts to describe something tangible, what "purpose" means is arbitrary, you have to define the concept coherently enough to apply it to tangible things in a consistent manner.

You fail to do that. Drinking Beverage

If someone tells you an X was created for a purpose, do you not understand what they mean by the word purpose? Or would you just say you're not sure what the purpose of X is that they believe X was created for? Would it be that it's not that you don't understand the meaning of the word purpose, but you just don't understand what purpose their attributing to X?

What if instead of purpose, we use an alternative term like accident. That universe, and human existence are a product of a cosmic accident. In claiming this have you stated something tangible about the universe?

Should people avoid claiming that we're product of an accident, for the same reasons you believe the term purpose should be avoided?

I'll ask the question I asked someone else here, maybe that would help us clarify the meaning here. Do you believe your life is purposeful? Do you find it meaningful? Is it important for you to see your life as meaningful, even if you don't see it as ultimately so?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-05-2016, 01:12 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 01:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 12:26 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  You are using incoherent and arbitrary concepts to describe something tangible, what "purpose" means is arbitrary, you have to define the concept coherently enough to apply it to tangible things in a consistent manner.

You fail to do that. Drinking Beverage

If someone tells you an X was created for a purpose, do you not understand what they mean by the word purpose? Or would you just say you're not sure what the purpose of X is that they believe X was created for? Would it be that it's not that you don't understand the meaning of the word purpose, but you just don't understand what purpose their attributing to X?

What if instead of purpose, we use an alternative term like accident. That universe, and human existence are a product of a cosmic accident. In claiming this have you stated something tangible about the universe?

Should people avoid claiming that we're product of an accident, for the same reasons you believe the term purpose should be avoided?

I'll ask the question I asked someone else here, maybe that would help us clarify the meaning here. Do you believe your life is purposeful? Do you find it meaningful? Is it important for you to see your life as meaningful, even if you don't see it as ultimately so?

If someone claims that something has a purpose, then they should be able to explain exactly what that purpose is. Again, you fail to do so. Facepalm

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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24-05-2016, 01:45 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 01:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 12:26 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  You are using incoherent and arbitrary concepts to describe something tangible, what "purpose" means is arbitrary, you have to define the concept coherently enough to apply it to tangible things in a consistent manner.

You fail to do that. Drinking Beverage

If someone tells you an X was created for a purpose, do you not understand what they mean by the word purpose?

Yes, but that particular meaning of the word "purpose" applies only to created things. By insisting that humans and their lives must have a purpose, you are begging the question and implying that they too are created things. If they're not, then there's no reason why they would have to have a purpose.
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