Dumb Atheist Sayings
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24-05-2016, 02:23 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 12:55 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Whenever a claim is made, the default position has to be unbelief. Supporting evidence has to be provided in order to move from disbelief to belief. If one begins from the position of belief you will immediately begin by holding contradictory beliefs.


The default position using this as rule, wouldn’t be purposelessness. It would be a lack of belief one way or the other, as to whether it was purposeful or not. The default position isn’t life is ultimately meaningless. The default position would be a lack of belief one way or the other. Or do you think otherwise and believe, the default position is life is ultimately meaningless? Perhaps we need to take up with the Rational Thinking committee, to see if we’re following the rules here properly.

Quote:he governing body is Rational Thinking. This is not arbitrary or of my own making.

I stand here unbelieving in any god.
You claim the Christian god.
A muslim claims the muslim god.
A Buddhist claims Buddha is god.

I stand here unbelieving in every position that’s an alternative to what I believe, this should go with out saying. If i believe the light is on, I lack a belief that light is off. One’s atheism can be a lack of belief one way or other in regards to theism, or one’s lack of belief in God, can be based on holding an alternative worldview to theism, like physicalism, or the belief that we’re product of a cosmic accident, etc...

Quote:It would be rational to assume no belief until or unless one of you proves a god.

According to the the Rational Thinking Rule 702. Unbelief in and of itself is neither rational or irrational. You can lack a belief for irrational reasons, i.e you can lack a belief that Obama is an American Citizen for irrational reasons, lack a belief the world is round for irrational reasons etc…The birther might even say that he lacks a belief in Obama American Citizenship, because he has a high standard of evidence, which would require the long form birth certificate as proof.

One can subscribe to lack of belief in regards to a variety of competing positions, like a Theistic position vs Physicalism, because of some commitment issues, for fear of having the burden of proof, trust issues, psychological issues, issues relating to one’s self image, bias, prejudices, etc.. Like we might say of many folks who lack a belief in climate change.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-05-2016, 02:34 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 02:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 12:55 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Whenever a claim is made, the default position has to be unbelief. Supporting evidence has to be provided in order to move from disbelief to belief. If one begins from the position of belief you will immediately begin by holding contradictory beliefs.


The default position using this as rule, wouldn’t be purposelessness. It would be a lack of belief one way or the other, as to whether it was purposeful or not. The default position isn’t life is ultimately meaningless. The default position would be a lack of belief one way or the other.

No, a default position is default because it relies on the fewest assumptions.

You're smuggling in a god of the gaps by asserting purpose i.e. god.

You are asserting a purpose and a god.

That's a hell of a big leap you made.

All while you haven't even defined what this purpose is.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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24-05-2016, 02:36 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 01:45 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Yes, but that particular meaning of the word "purpose" applies only to created things. By insisting that humans and their lives must have a purpose, you are begging the question and implying that they too are created things. If they're not, then there's no reason why they would have to have a purpose.

Exactly, by believing that human life has purpose, I am in fact claiming that it's a created thing.

The only difference is, is that I infer that it was created by perceiving purpose, rather than perceiving that it was purposeful, by believing we are created. I don't believe life is purposeful, because I believe it had a creator. I believe it had a creator, because I believe it's purposeful.

What's self-evident for me is the teleological nature of life. My inability to believe, is in the belief that it was all a product of a cosmic accident. That our desire for meaning, purpose, truth, of matter being able to arrange itself into conscious and self aware creatures, with creative, moral, rational capacities, a means for the universe to be aware of itself. Our sense of moral obligation, to love others, the near universal search for the sacred, the tendency of religions to overlap in themes, ideas, and beliefs, common narratives, scapegoat myths, sacrifices, etc...etc... all appear to me as screaming with a purposeful order. That attempts to explain all this away as a feature of purposelessness universe, doesn't seem particularly rational, and seems driven more by a desire to deny what appears as large as an elephant.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-05-2016, 02:43 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 02:36 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  That attempts to explain all this away as a feature of purposelessness universe, doesn't seem particularly rational, and seems driven more by a desire to deny what appears as large as an elephant.

Why is it that a lot of theists never seem to be capable of understanding that someone can disagree with something without necessarily denying it? Is it because they themselves refuse to accept any other possibility, due to their prejudices against atheists?

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24-05-2016, 02:46 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 02:36 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 01:45 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Yes, but that particular meaning of the word "purpose" applies only to created things. By insisting that humans and their lives must have a purpose, you are begging the question and implying that they too are created things. If they're not, then there's no reason why they would have to have a purpose.

Exactly, by believing that human life has purpose, I am in fact claiming that it's a created thing.

The only difference is, is that I infer that it was created by perceiving purpose, rather than perceiving that it was purposeful, by believing we are created. I don't believe life is purposeful, because I believe it had a creator. I believe it had a creator, because I believe it's purposeful.

What's self-evident for me is the teleological nature of life. My inability to believe, is in the belief that it was all a product of a cosmic accident. That our desire for meaning, purpose, truth, of matter being able to arrange itself into conscious and self aware creatures, with creative, moral, rational capacities, a means for the universe to be aware of itself. Our sense of moral obligation, to love others, the near universal search for the sacred, the tendency of religions to overlap in themes, ideas, and beliefs, common narratives, scapegoat myths, sacrifices, etc...etc... all appear to me as screaming with a purposeful order. That attempts to explain all this away as a feature of purposelessness universe, doesn't seem particularly rational, and seems driven more by a desire to deny what appears as large as an elephant.

You've just described a terminal case of confirmation bias. Facepalm

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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24-05-2016, 02:59 PM
Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 02:46 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 02:36 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Exactly, by believing that human life has purpose, I am in fact claiming that it's a created thing.

The only difference is, is that I infer that it was created by perceiving purpose, rather than perceiving that it was purposeful, by believing we are created. I don't believe life is purposeful, because I believe it had a creator. I believe it had a creator, because I believe it's purposeful.

What's self-evident for me is the teleological nature of life. My inability to believe, is in the belief that it was all a product of a cosmic accident. That our desire for meaning, purpose, truth, of matter being able to arrange itself into conscious and self aware creatures, with creative, moral, rational capacities, a means for the universe to be aware of itself. Our sense of moral obligation, to love others, the near universal search for the sacred, the tendency of religions to overlap in themes, ideas, and beliefs, common narratives, scapegoat myths, sacrifices, etc...etc... all appear to me as screaming with a purposeful order. That attempts to explain all this away as a feature of purposelessness universe, doesn't seem particularly rational, and seems driven more by a desire to deny what appears as large as an elephant.

You've just described a terminal case of confirmation bias. Facepalm

Judging that best anyone has here as an alternative possibility is to "lack belief" one way or the other, confirmation bias seems to not be the case.

Whatever reason there maybe as to why I don't lack a belief one way or the other, the explanation is unlikely to be confirmation bias.








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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-05-2016, 03:01 PM
Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 02:43 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  [quote='Tomasia' pid='1002258' dateline='1464122179']
Why is it that a lot of theists never seem to be capable of understanding that someone can disagree with something without necessarily denying it? Is it because they themselves refuse to accept any other possibility, due to their prejudices against atheists?

I think the lack of belief position was carved out almost exclusively for such people, to be able to disagree without denying.





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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-05-2016, 03:06 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 03:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 02:43 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  [quote='Tomasia' pid='1002258' dateline='1464122179']
Why is it that a lot of theists never seem to be capable of understanding that someone can disagree with something without necessarily denying it? Is it because they themselves refuse to accept any other possibility, due to their prejudices against atheists?

I think the lack of belief position was carved out almost exclusively for such people, to be able to disagree without denying.





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I'm not sure what that means.

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24-05-2016, 03:11 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 07:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I can't speak for you, but for me personally, it has nothing to do with questioning my beliefs, as the path to unbelief, as commonly expressed here. In fact it wouldn't be about thinking either, but rather in believing some set of presuppositional beliefs, often held in the background, such as you can only believe things, based on this, but not this, etc....

Yeah, I got that much. My point is that you don't have to allow those presuppositions the safety of not being subject to questioning. That you do doesn't mean that you must.
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24-05-2016, 03:12 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 07:12 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, I think that people often tend to share a variety of beliefs, views, values, etc.. with the culture, groups, etc.. they're a part of. And that these groups often reinforce their beliefs and values as well, through a variety of means, such as shame, respect, role models, etc...

If I was born in Iraq, I might have been something other than a christian, but then again my family is from a country that's predominately Hindus, and converted just a few generations ago.

And within in a few short years, China will likely be the largest christian nation in the country, in spite of having strong political and cultures forces to contend with.

That's rather my point. Indoctrination does happen ... and it can be broken.
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