Dumb Atheist Sayings
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25-05-2016, 07:22 AM (This post was last modified: 25-05-2016 07:26 AM by TheBeardedDude.)
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
Yep....still waiting.

Broad generalizations are useless. Especially those that artificially segregate populations of people. Demonstrate that the modern western world has more fears that cause parents to question religion and religious beliefs than:
1) the past western world
2) the modern eastern world
3) the past eastern world

And since you are the one saying that it is the western world "now" that has these fears, you'll need to be the one to define when the "past" and "modern" versions of the eastern and western worlds is. Past (not "now" but "then") = pre-20th century? etc, etc, etc)"

Ergo, what fears does the western world of "now" have that cause parents to question (the context here is religious beliefs) more than:
1) the past western world
2) the modern eastern world
3) the past eastern world

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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25-05-2016, 07:35 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(25-05-2016 07:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Again, so the default position should be a lack of belief in life being ultimately meaningful, or meaningless, until proven to us otherwise?

No. The default position is in regards to the proposed belief.

(25-05-2016 07:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And you also lack a belief one way or the other here, is that correct?

As noted, the question stops with the proposed belief.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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25-05-2016, 07:55 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
From post 403, your confirmation bias:

(24-05-2016 02:36 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  What's self-evident for me is the teleological nature of life. My inability to believe, is in the belief that it was all a product of a cosmic accident. That our desire for meaning, purpose, truth, of matter being able to arrange itself into conscious and self aware creatures, with creative, moral, rational capacities, a means for the universe to be aware of itself. Our sense of moral obligation, to love others, the near universal search for the sacred, the tendency of religions to overlap in themes, ideas, and beliefs, common narratives, scapegoat myths, sacrifices, etc...etc... all appear to me as screaming with a purposeful order. That attempts to explain all this away as a feature of purposelessness universe, doesn't seem particularly rational, and seems driven more by a desire to deny what appears as large as an elephant.

Your reference to assigning anthropomorphic values onto the universe is blatant confirmation bias and a fundamental error in your thinking.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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25-05-2016, 08:20 AM (This post was last modified: 25-05-2016 08:27 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(25-05-2016 07:55 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Your reference to assigning anthropomorphic values onto the universe is blatant confirmation bias and a fundamental error in your thinking.

Assigning values to thing, anthropomorphic or not, isn't confirmation bias. Confirmation bias would require an alternative position, to this perspective, that I'm giving disproportionately less consideration to.

It requires me to place extra weight on factors supportive of my view, and ignoring, or not giving consideration to factors in support of an alternative position. You can't gauge confirmation bias, based solely on whatever beliefs a person holds, whether you agree with them or not, or even find them silly. I can be entirely mistaken in my views about the universe, and human life, without confirmation bias being involved.

There could be confirmation bias that's applicable here, but you can only gauge that, in light of an alternative position. You don't hold an alternative position, you lack a belief.

So no, there's no confirmation bias, at least there's nothing for you to substantiate that in regards to myself, and my position as expressed here.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-05-2016, 08:21 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(25-05-2016 07:35 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(25-05-2016 07:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Again, so the default position should be a lack of belief in life being ultimately meaningful, or meaningless, until proven to us otherwise?

No. The default position is in regards to the proposed belief.

(25-05-2016 07:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And you also lack a belief one way or the other here, is that correct?

As noted, the question stops with the proposed belief.

So you don't want to give an honest answer, as to whether you lack a belief that universe is ultimately meaningful or meaningless?

Whether you would describe your own position as unbelief in regards to both positions, or do you subscribe to a "proposed" alternative belief here as well?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-05-2016, 08:26 AM (This post was last modified: 25-05-2016 08:29 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
I'm still waiting on why I can't infer purpose?

To copy and paste a post I addressed here to someone else:

"I already pointed out a variety of things that scream purpose to me, and convey a teleological sense of the world, our desire for meaning, truth, goodness, the ability of matter to organize itself into, conscious, self-aware creatures, with moral and creative capacities, etc...

And you seem to be suggesting that one can't see purpose in these factors, yet haven't particularly disclosed why that is? Why can't I infer purpose from factors like this?"

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-05-2016, 08:46 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 02:36 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  That attempts to explain all this away as a feature of purposelessness universe, doesn't seem particularly rational, and seems driven more by a desire to deny what appears as large as an elephant.

The unquestioned premise here is that only a purpose assigned by a suprauniversal agency has meaning. The Universe can be -- and in my opinion is -- entirely purpose, but we can still have purpose in life.

It's a form of category error you're making here. But you won't, by your own admission, be able to question it. You've surrendered your agency.
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25-05-2016, 08:53 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(25-05-2016 08:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  So you don't want to give an honest answer, as to whether you lack a belief that universe is ultimately meaningful or meaningless?

How many times should I say it?

(24-05-2016 09:59 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Until you prove a purposeful cause, natural causes are all that we have.

(24-05-2016 11:18 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Until you prove a purposeful cause, there is only natural. I require physical, scientific evidence as described above.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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25-05-2016, 08:53 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(25-05-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I already pointed out a variety of things that scream purpose to me, and convey a teleological sense of the world, our desire for meaning, truth, goodness, the ability of matter to organize itself into, conscious, self-aware creatures, with moral and creative capacities.

So what if they "scream purpose" to you?

I'm asking you to demonstrate that, and you cannot.

(25-05-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And you seem to be suggesting that one can't see purpose in these factors, yet haven't particularly disclosed why that is?

I have suggested no such thing, and would instead argue that you've read me wrongly. One can certainly see purpose if one's filters so allow -- but that doesn't mean that purpose exists. There are other explanations for your "seeing" purpose, and you've already admitted to one: preconceived bias coupled with an inability to question your own premises.

You see purpose because you want to.

(25-05-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Why can't I infer purpose from factors like this?

No one said you cannot. What is being said is that your reasoning is terribly unconvincing.

Perhaps you should reread this conversation, this time making an effort to understand the points being put to you (rather than with your obvious defensiveness)? That too is a filter which is obviously interfering with your comprehension.
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25-05-2016, 08:58 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(25-05-2016 08:46 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  The unquestioned premise here is that only a purpose assigned by a suprauniversal agency has meaning. The Universe can be -- and in my opinion is -- entirely purpose, but we can still have purpose in life.

It's a form of category error you're making here. But you won't, by your own admission, be able to question it. You've surrendered your agency.

I'm just speaking of ultimate purpose here, inferring from the existence of a variety of factors, of our universe, of human life, that life has an ultimate purpose, is teleological, to repeat those factors : "our desire for meaning, truth, goodness, the ability of matter to organize itself into, conscious, self-aware creatures, with moral and creative capacities, etc... "

Some people here understand how inferring this, relates to a creator God, but even if you don't, we can just ignore this bit for the time being. I just want to know why can't I infer teleology, ultimate purpose, from these factors? There's no categorial error in doing so either.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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