Dumb Atheist Sayings
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25-05-2016, 09:01 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
What is your "ultimate purpose" and how did you determine it?

(Still waiting on an answer to my other question too Drinking Beverage )

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25-05-2016, 09:13 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(25-05-2016 08:58 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-05-2016 08:46 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  The unquestioned premise here is that only a purpose assigned by a suprauniversal agency has meaning. The Universe can be -- and in my opinion is -- entirely purpose, but we can still have purpose in life.

It's a form of category error you're making here. But you won't, by your own admission, be able to question it. You've surrendered your agency.

I'm just speaking of ultimate purpose here, inferring from the existence of a variety of factors, of our universe, of human life, that life has an ultimate purpose, is teleological, to repeat those factors : "our desire for meaning, truth, goodness, the ability of matter to organize itself into, conscious, self-aware creatures, with moral and creative capacities, etc... "

Some people here understand how inferring this, relates to a creator God, but even if you don't, we can just ignore this bit for the time being. I just want to know why can't I infer teleology, ultimate purpose, from these factors? There's no categorial error in doing so either.

Define what this exact purpose is in a falsifiable matter. Answer this question- what would the universe look like that has no ultimate purpose? How would you determine the difference? What other universes do you have to compare to that have no purpose?

If a universe looks like it has no purpose, but it looks like it has a purpose at the same time, the entire question of purpose is unfalsifiable.

How would you go about determining a universe actually has a purpose outside of your own flawed perception?

I can say- the universe has flurm. That is exactly as meaningful as using the word purpose unless you define it to mean something in a falsifiable manner.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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25-05-2016, 09:21 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(25-05-2016 08:53 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  So what if they "scream purpose" to you?

I'm asking you to demonstrate that, and you cannot.

I'm interested in a self-reflective conversations, not in convincing you of any of my positions, I wouldn't even know where to even begin to try and convince you of my beliefs, because of the variety of differences between us, and our lives.

Quote:I have suggested no such thing, and would instead argue that you've read me wrongly. One can certainly see purpose if one's filters so allow -- but that doesn't mean that purpose exists. There are other explanations for your "seeing" purpose, and you've already admitted to one: preconceived bias coupled with an inability to question your own premises.

You see purpose because you want to.

A person can see an ultimate purpose based on these factors, without preconceived biases, or an inability to question their premises, they may even be entirely mistaken in this belief, yet none those factors may be readily present as the source of their conclusion. You may think that my beliefs are wrong, but you'll have a much harder time justifying that the reason why I don't see that I'm wrong is because of biases or an inability to question.

You don't even hold a particular alternative belief here, you're arguing from a lack of belief. As a result it's unclear what you believe an unbiased mind, capable of questioning mind would conclude, that he should lack a belief one way or the other? Being agnostic as traditionally understand in regards to such questions, a sort of fence sitter, unable to draw a conclusion one way or the other?

Quote:No one said you cannot. What is being said is that your reasoning is terribly unconvincing.

Sure, I agree that's I'm completely unable to convince you of my views, but that not really what I was asking.

So is there something wrong with inferring that myself based on these factors, or not? If there's nothing particularly wrong with this inference, is your only complaint that I can't convince you to draw the same conclusion?

Quote:Perhaps you should reread this conversation, this time making an effort to understand the points being put to you (rather than with your obvious defensiveness)? That too is a filter which is obviously interfering with your comprehension.

I'm not being defensive, you are. Atheists such as yourself appeal to "demonstration", "proving to each other our views", etc... as a sort of defensive crutch, even though I've repeated to you, that's not my interest, I'm interested in self-reflective responses from you. I don't require that you convince me of your views, anymore so than you should expect me to convince you of mine.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-05-2016, 09:23 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(25-05-2016 08:58 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Some people here understand how inferring this, relates to a creator God, but even if you don't, we can just ignore this bit for the time being.

Ignore the part where you make claims and then fail to back them up?

Go for it. Change the subject again. At least you're consistent.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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25-05-2016, 09:41 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(25-05-2016 09:13 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Define what this exact purpose is in a falsifiable matter. Answer this question- what would the universe look like that has no ultimate purpose?

Probably one in which matter lacks the properties to form such aspects, that no combination of it produces such forms. One in which concept likes goodness, truth, meaning, were not significant pursuits of our lives, one in which the common thread among human beings, is not the pursuit of the sacred, a sense that there's some transcendent order to it all.

Quote:How would you determine the difference? What other universes do you have to compare to that have no purpose?

One in which you and I wouldn't be here, discussing it.

Quote:How would you go about determining a universe actually has a purpose outside of your own flawed perception?

I can only see the unconvincing nature of arguments otherwise, I can observe that even among individuals such as yourself who lack a belief, seem to also find the idea of meaningless universe, unconvincing as well, that you prefer to lack a belief on the question one way or the other.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-05-2016, 09:47 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(25-05-2016 09:23 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(25-05-2016 08:58 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Some people here understand how inferring this, relates to a creator God, but even if you don't, we can just ignore this bit for the time being.

Ignore the part where you make claims and then fail to back them up?

Go for it. Change the subject again. At least you're consistent.


I stated a variety of my beliefs, and provided why I infer the things I do. Stating your beliefs, and giving reasons for them, doesn't entail having to convince the other party of them. You may hold a variety of beliefs, and various points you might have disclosed them, but the burden of proof, only applies when you're intentionally trying to convince the other party of those beliefs, not merely by holding them.

Perhaps that's an odd concept to understand for a group of people, who define themselves as lacking beliefs. If they imagine that merely holding a belief, requires you to actively demonstrate them every time you run across someone who doesn't share them, it's understandable why lacking a belief is preferable to them, it would save you a considerable amount of exhaustion.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-05-2016, 09:57 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
What is your "ultimate purpose" and how did you determine it?

Yep....still waiting.

Broad generalizations are useless. Especially those that artificially segregate populations of people. Demonstrate that the modern western world has more fears that cause parents to question religion and religious beliefs than:
1) the past western world
2) the modern eastern world
3) the past eastern world

And since you are the one saying that it is the western world "now" that has these fears, you'll need to be the one to define when the "past" and "modern" versions of the eastern and western worlds is. Past (not "now" but "then") = pre-20th century? etc, etc, etc)"

Ergo, what fears does the western world of "now" have that cause parents to question (the context here is religious beliefs) more than:
1) the past western world
2) the modern eastern world
3) the past eastern world

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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25-05-2016, 10:06 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(25-05-2016 09:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I stated a variety of my beliefs, and provided why I infer the things I do. Stating your beliefs, and giving reasons for them, doesn't entail having to convince the other party of them. You may hold a variety of beliefs, and various points you might have disclosed them, but the burden of proof, only applies when you're intentionally trying to convince the other party of those beliefs, not merely by holding them.

So, since you can't win, you weren't actually playing to begin with?

(25-05-2016 09:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Perhaps that's an odd concept to understand for a group of people, who define themselves as lacking beliefs.
Lacking a belief in god is not the same thing as lacking beliefs. This has been pointed out to you many times. Perhaps you should write it down somewhere?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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25-05-2016, 10:09 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(25-05-2016 10:06 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(25-05-2016 09:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I stated a variety of my beliefs, and provided why I infer the things I do. Stating your beliefs, and giving reasons for them, doesn't entail having to convince the other party of them. You may hold a variety of beliefs, and various points you might have disclosed them, but the burden of proof, only applies when you're intentionally trying to convince the other party of those beliefs, not merely by holding them.

So, since you can't win, you weren't actually playing to begin with?

(25-05-2016 09:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Perhaps that's an odd concept to understand for a group of people, who define themselves as lacking beliefs.
Lacking a belief in god is not the same thing as lacking beliefs. This has been pointed out to you many times. Perhaps you should write it down somewhere?

"So, since you can't win, you weren't actually playing to begin with?"

aka, preaching. Which is what he claims he isn't here to do, but then does over and over and over. Dishonesty is inherent to him it would seem.

"Lacking a belief in god is not the same thing as lacking beliefs. This has been pointed out to you many times. "

Atheism =/= nihilism
Not sure how many people have pointed this out to him but...yeah Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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25-05-2016, 10:09 AM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(25-05-2016 08:58 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Some people here understand how inferring this, relates to a creator God, but even if you don't, we can just ignore this bit for the time being. I just want to know why can't I infer teleology, ultimate purpose, from these factors? There's no categorial error in doing so either.

There is exactly a categorical issue with that... the whole notion of inference is a big fauliness xplained of induction and the problem of induction. There is so much well defined oversight that occurs from induction/inference.

I don't know how you can remain so allouf to how flawed at actual conclusion gathering those types of reasonings are. It's one thing to say oh I don't care I will infer anyway but to think there is no error in the form of that, is questionable. I guess when you hinted at it and never answered me or girly's replay to the whole self doubting notion it meant something. I guess you don't seem to have the mental experience of doubting self existence.

It categorically is bad and open to an abundance of faultiness reasoning.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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