Dumb Atheist Sayings
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25-05-2016, 01:09 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(25-05-2016 12:19 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I provided a variety of factors which lead me infer purpose, that I've repeated numerous times here. So far, no one's been able to state what is particularly wrong about drawing such an inference based on these factors.

This is an outright lie. Multiple posters, including myself have described why believing without evidence is problematic.

See Post #327 for one example.

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25-05-2016, 01:29 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(25-05-2016 08:58 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Some people here understand how inferring this, relates to a creator God, but even if you don't, we can just ignore this bit for the time being.

Oh, I understand your point. I simply disagree with it, on the basis that inference is too slender a reed to support such a weighty claim.

(25-05-2016 08:58 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I just want to know why can't I infer teleology, ultimate purpose, from these factors? There's no categorial error in doing so either.

Again, no one is saying you can't make such inferences -- just that they're weak support for such claims.

As for the category error, it lies in you assigning purpose at one level (which is, by the by, entirely undemonstrated) when it is entirely possible -- and demonstrably true -- that it certainly happens at another level of life, that of actual, living beings.
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25-05-2016, 01:40 PM (This post was last modified: 25-05-2016 02:06 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(25-05-2016 09:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm interested in a self-reflective conversations, not in convincing you of any of my positions, I wouldn't even know where to even begin to try and convince you of my beliefs, because of the variety of differences between us, and our lives.

Fair enough.

(25-05-2016 09:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A person can see an ultimate purpose based on these factors, without preconceived biases, or an inability to question their premises, they may even be entirely mistaken in this belief, yet none those factors may be readily present as the source of their conclusion.

The thing is that you have already admitted to both these flaws in your thinking. Perhaps others have arrived at your conclusion with sounder thinking, but as for you yourself, you've already conceded this aspect of the discussion.

(25-05-2016 09:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You may think that my beliefs are wrong, but you'll have a much harder time justifying that the reason why I don't see that I'm wrong is because of biases or an inability to question.

Not when I've got your own words to the same effect. All I have to do is scroll up and link them back to you. Surely I shouldn't have to do that.

(25-05-2016 09:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You don't even hold a particular alternative belief here, you're arguing from a lack of belief. As a result it's unclear what you believe an unbiased mind, capable of questioning mind would conclude, that he should lack a belief one way or the other?

I don't believe that an unbiased mind automatically leads to any one conclusion. Indeed, I'm an agnostic atheist in the sense that I understand the limits of my knowledge, and use the heuristic I find most apt in interrogating the universe. It isn't faith or inference, it's reason, unclouded insofar as possible by bias.

(25-05-2016 09:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Being agnostic as traditionally understand in regards to such questions, a sort of fence sitter, unable to draw a conclusion one way or the other?

Sure. And I think that is the most rational answer to many questions: I don't know.

The thing is, I understand that that doesn't give me carte-blanche to color in the world as my fancy dictates.

(25-05-2016 09:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Sure, I agree that's I'm completely unable to convince you of my views, but that not really what I was asking.

So is there something wrong with inferring that myself based on these factors, or not? If there's nothing particularly wrong with this inference, is your only complaint that I can't convince you to draw the same conclusion?

No, as I mention above, it's that such an inference is not nearly substantial enough to bear the weight of your beliefs.

(25-05-2016 09:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm not being defensive, you are. Atheists such as yourself appeal to "demonstration", "proving to each other our views", etc... as a sort of defensive crutch, even though I've repeated to you, that's not my interest, I'm interested in self-reflective responses from you. I don't require that you convince me of your views, anymore so than you should expect me to convince you of mine.

I'm giving you self-reflective responses. If you don't acknowledge them as such, it's entirely possible that's because of your admitted bias and refusal to question your premises.

I can't blame you for disavowing any goal of convincing others of your views, either. My own views are well-supported by facts, which, given your admitted bias, might well be the reason you're not asking to be convinced. That doesn't mean I'm bound by your approach to things. I'm not just writing for you, but for an audience of readers as well, and I'm pointing out why I reject your views. Whether you're trying to convince me or not is entirely irrelevant to that goal of mine.

I'm not defensive about my lack of faith; I feel no attack from you. You, on the other hand, seem to display that here. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry, but your persistent refusal to answer simple questions indicates to me a guarded demeanor in approaching this discussion. You can't expect to propose the fantastic amongst a group of skeptics and not receive pointed questions.
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25-05-2016, 02:02 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(25-05-2016 10:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No those observations lead me to this conclusion.

You beg to disagree:

(19-05-2016 06:23 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But the thing here is, that I already believe in God, I can't choose not to believe in God. I can't stop myself from believing now, making myself lack a belief, than deliberate whether or not God exists, as if I don't hold a position already. So what am I doing when fostering doubts, or new challenges, that haven't particularly undermined this belief? They get swallowed into my self-justification. I acquire other beliefs that alleviate any previously arising doubt, there by sustaining what I held as self-evident.

(24-05-2016 07:12 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, I think that people often tend to share a variety of beliefs, views, values, etc.. with the culture, groups, etc.. they're a part of. And that these groups often reinforce their beliefs and values as well, through a variety of means, such as shame, respect, role models, etc...

If I was born in Iraq, I might have been something other than a christian, but then again my family is from a country that's predominately Hindus, and converted just a few generations ago.

You were raised in a family of Christians -- a group, as you yourself put it -- that had been that way for generations. You imbibed those values even before you were aware of doing so. You've admitted that you can't question your premises.

And then you say that observation is what led you to your conclusion?

Color me, ahem, skeptical.
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25-05-2016, 02:10 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(25-05-2016 01:09 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  This is an outright lie. Multiple posters, including myself have described why believing without evidence is problematic.

See Post #327 for one example.

Uhm, please tell me how drawing the particular inferences of purpose, based on the factors I indicated is problematic.

Please tell me how see like as ultimately meaningful is anymore problematic than not drawing this conclusion.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-05-2016, 03:17 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(25-05-2016 02:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-05-2016 01:09 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  This is an outright lie. Multiple posters, including myself have described why believing without evidence is problematic.

See Post #327 for one example.

Uhm, please tell me how drawing the particular inferences of purpose, based on the factors I indicated is problematic.

Please tell me how see like as ultimately meaningful is anymore problematic than not drawing this conclusion.

Waste your own time. You get no more of mine.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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25-05-2016, 08:19 PM
RE: Dumb Atheist Sayings
(24-05-2016 02:36 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 01:45 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Yes, but that particular meaning of the word "purpose" applies only to created things. By insisting that humans and their lives must have a purpose, you are begging the question and implying that they too are created things. If they're not, then there's no reason why they would have to have a purpose.

Exactly, by believing that human life has purpose, I am in fact claiming that it's a created thing.

The only difference is, is that I infer that it was created by perceiving purpose, rather than perceiving that it was purposeful, by believing we are created. I don't believe life is purposeful, because I believe it had a creator. I believe it had a creator, because I believe it's purposeful.

And you don't see that that is utterly circular? You are so disappointing. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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