Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
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07-12-2015, 11:48 AM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 11:10 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 11:00 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Maybe he's referring to the fact that two sins like "adultery" and "homicide" would be weighed equally... When they clearly do not cause the same amount of damage.
Exactly. They are weighed the same. The bible makes it clear in Romans 3 that the penalty for sin is death....period. Revelation explains that it is a spiritual death. God does not care if you murder or lie because the penalty is the same. Which is where the whole "grace" thing comes into play.

Leave the Bible out for a moment, and also terms like "just", do you think it's a good system?

Would you actually want it implemented as law in your country? Where stealing a candy and killing another human being holds exactly the same punishment?

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07-12-2015, 11:52 AM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 11:17 AM)Imathinker Wrote:  Yes. Why would being homosexual, which hurts nobody, and killing someone, which obviously does, have the same punishment? That seems like a strange kind of justice.
Revelation 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

The bible teaches that God is so holy and pure that NOTHING impure can be allowed in his presence. ...period. If you have ever committed a sin you are not by definition "pure".
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07-12-2015, 11:59 AM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 11:48 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 11:10 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Exactly. They are weighed the same. The bible makes it clear in Romans 3 that the penalty for sin is death....period. Revelation explains that it is a spiritual death. God does not care if you murder or lie because the penalty is the same. Which is where the whole "grace" thing comes into play.

Leave the Bible out for a moment, and also terms like "just", do you think it's a good system?

Would you actually want it implemented as law in your country? Where stealing a candy and killing another human being holds exactly the same punishment?
If you want to use that example you have to use the full context. In this case, to compare the teachings of the bible a earthly justice system would be to say. "All crime is punishable by death. However someone who was innocent already served your sentence. So now if you commit a crime all you have to do is believe that your punishment has been paid repent."

How does that system sound?
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07-12-2015, 12:02 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
Shitty. You still aren't accountable for anything, you just have to believe. And why is an innocent being held accountable?

A man should not believe in an ism, he should believe in himself. -Ferris Bueller

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07-12-2015, 12:10 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 11:59 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  If you want to use that example you have to use the full context. In this case, to compare the teachings of the bible a earthly justice system would be to say. "All crime is punishable by death. However someone who was innocent already served your sentence. So now if you commit a crime all you have to do is believe that your punishment has been paid repent."

How does that system sound?

I would consider that system to be unjust and immoral on pretty much every level.
A single punishment for every transgression is not just.
Punishing an innocent person for somebody else's transgression is not just.
Using a scapegoat to avoid punishment is not just.

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07-12-2015, 12:15 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 12:02 PM)Imathinker Wrote:  Shitty. You still aren't accountable for anything, you just have to believe. And why is an innocent being held accountable?
Because if this person was not innocent, then he deserves to be punished. So how can someone who is not innocent from a crime willingly take your punishment?
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07-12-2015, 12:17 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 12:10 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 11:59 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  If you want to use that example you have to use the full context. In this case, to compare the teachings of the bible a earthly justice system would be to say. "All crime is punishable by death. However someone who was innocent already served your sentence. So now if you commit a crime all you have to do is believe that your punishment has been paid repent."

How does that system sound?

I would consider that system to be unjust and immoral on pretty much every level.
A single punishment for every transgression is not just.
Punishing an innocent person for somebody else's transgression is not just.
Using a scapegoat to avoid punishment is not just.
The person willingly accepted the punishment to free everyone else from their punishment.
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07-12-2015, 12:25 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 11:00 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 10:53 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Why would you find that to be stupid?

Maybe he's referring to the fact that two sins like "adultery" and "homicide" would be weighed equally... When they clearly do not cause the same amount of damage.

There are some religious types who consider adultery to be worse than murder because murder is fun for only one person.
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07-12-2015, 12:27 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 12:10 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 11:59 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  If you want to use that example you have to use the full context. In this case, to compare the teachings of the bible a earthly justice system would be to say. "All crime is punishable by death. However someone who was innocent already served your sentence. So now if you commit a crime all you have to do is believe that your punishment has been paid repent."

How does that system sound?

I would consider that system to be unjust and immoral on pretty much every level.
A single punishment for every transgression is not just.
Punishing an innocent person for somebody else's transgression is not just.
Using a scapegoat to avoid punishment is not just.
Well we must first answer the question of "What is just?".
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07-12-2015, 12:29 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 12:17 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 12:10 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I would consider that system to be unjust and immoral on pretty much every level.
A single punishment for every transgression is not just.
Punishing an innocent person for somebody else's transgression is not just.
Using a scapegoat to avoid punishment is not just.
The person willingly accepted the punishment to free everyone else from their punishment.

That is totally irrelevant. It is not just to punish an innocent person for the transgressions of another.

Let's try an example closer to home...
One of the men you command does something wrong and he's been in trouble before so he knows you'll come down hard on him for it. A buddy of his takes the rap to help his friend and you punish the innocent man. Later on you discover what really happened. Would you leave it at that or would you call the guilty man out for his actions (the original offense and/or letting a buddy take the rap to save himself)? Was justice served because somebody was punished even though it was not the guilty party?

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