Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
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07-12-2015, 06:12 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 05:42 PM)Imathinker Wrote:  What a great example to set. If someone doesn't agree with your religion or ridicules it, they deserve to die.

So basically the Egyptians had it coming to 'em is what you're saying. I don't see how taking it out on their firstborns is a good solution either.Consider
Did you really read my post? Perhaps you should reread it.
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07-12-2015, 06:20 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 06:06 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  To make that example work you would have to say that the individual who committed the act confessed to me and another individual volunteered to take responsibility for it. That happens more often than you think.

I don't see that it changes things much but assume that's how you found out. Do you think it is just to punish the innocent man? Is justice served so long as somebody gets punished whether that individual is guilty or not.

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07-12-2015, 06:23 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 05:39 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 05:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  And that is completely illogical and immoral. Drinking Beverage
Immoral by who's standards?

*whose

Any sane, rational, moral person's standards.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-12-2015, 06:29 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
I reread it and pardon me if I was not inspired. I got out of it that:

1. God wasn't NEARLY as bad as pharaoh.
2. It's okay because all the infants went to heaven
3. God is allowed to slaughter people cause he made them and that's his perogative.
Am I close?

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07-12-2015, 06:36 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 05:18 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  First, the King James Version has done us a disservice by translated the term as “children.” The Hebrew word can refer to children, but rather more specifically means "young men." The NIV, quoted here, uses the word “youths.”

There are many translations but all are variations of young men, boys, small boys, etc. I especially like the ISV which calls them "insignificant". Their age doesn't change the basic immorality of the story.

Quote:Second, the fact that the bears mauled 42 of the youths indicates that there were more than 42 youths involved.

I can see how you can get that but it isn't explicitly said. It also doesn't change the basic immorality of the story.

Quote:This was not a small group of children making fun of a bald man. Rather, it was a large demonstration of young men who assembled for the purpose of mocking a prophet of God.

No, you don't know that. You have no idea why they had assembled, nor do you know how old they were. It may feel better to picture a large gang of thugs rather than a bunch of little kids but it is just supposition because the text is far from clear. The sad part is, even if that characterization is correct it doesn't change the fact that the response is not justified.

Quote:Third, the mocking of “go on up, you baldhead,” is more than making fun of baldness. The baldness of Elisha referred to here may be: 1) natural loss of hair; 2) a shaved head denoting his separation to the prophetic office; or more likely, 3) an epithet of scorn and contempt, Elisha not being literally bald. The phrase “go up” likely was a reference to Elijah, Elisha’s mentor, being taken up to Heaven earlier in 2 Kings chapter 2:11-12. These youths were sarcastically taunting and insulting the Lord’s prophet by telling him to repeat Elijah’s translation.

All irrelevant. "Sticks and stones..." and so forth. They called him names and they were disrespectful. There's no way that justifies being mauled by bears.

Quote:In summary, 2 Kings 2:23-24 is not an account of God mauling young children for making fun of a bald man.

It is an account of god mauling people who he thought had been rude.

Quote:Rather, it is a record of an insulting demonstration against God’s prophet by a large group of young men. Because these young people of about 20 years of age or older (the same term is used of Solomon in 1 Kings 3:7) so despised the prophet of the Lord, Elisha called upon the Lord to deal with the rebels as He saw fit. The Lord’s punishment was the mauling of 42 of them by two female bears. The penalty was clearly justified, for to ridicule Elisha was to ridicule the Lord Himself. The seriousness of the crime was indicated by the seriousness of the punishment. The appalling judgment was God’s warning to all who would scorn the prophets of the Lord.

Jason, you are better than that. You don't know their age and there is absolutely nothing in what they are said to have done that was serious enough to deserve death. I realize that we're back to "every sin deserves death" but that's a wholly unjust and immoral principle that no sane person would ever institute. Your god is a petty, vindictive, evil, immoral prick. Good thing he doesn't exist, eh?

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07-12-2015, 06:38 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 06:29 PM)Imathinker Wrote:  I reread it and pardon me if I was not inspired. I got out of it that:

1. God wasn't NEARLY as bad as pharaoh.
2. It's okay because all the infants went to heaven
3. God is allowed to slaughter people cause he made them and that's his perogative.
Am I close?
Getting there but I am certain that this is not new information for you.
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07-12-2015, 06:41 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 06:20 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 06:06 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  To make that example work you would have to say that the individual who committed the act confessed to me and another individual volunteered to take responsibility for it. That happens more often than you think.

I don't see that it changes things much but assume that's how you found out. Do you think it is just to punish the innocent man? Is justice served so long as somebody gets punished whether that individual is guilty or not.

This conversation reminds me of the following:

“I find something repulsive about the idea of vicarious redemption. I would not throw my numberless sins onto a scapegoat and expect them to pass from me; we rightly sneer at the barbaric societies that practice this unpleasantness in its literal form. There's no moral value in the vicarious gesture anyway. As Thomas Paine pointed out, you may if you wish take on a another man's debt, or even to take his place in prison. That would be self-sacrificing. But you may not assume his actual crimes as if they were your own; for one thing you did not commit them and might have died rather than do so; for another this impossible action would rob him of individual responsibility. So the whole apparatus of absolution and forgiveness strikes me as positively immoral, while the concept of revealed truth degrades the concept of free intelligence by purportedly relieving us of the hard task of working out the ethical principles for ourselves.”


― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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07-12-2015, 06:42 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 03:44 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 03:27 PM)jennybee Wrote:  For a being who is so holy and pure, God certainly does some pretty impure things in the Bible.
Example please.

Open the OT and point. Tongue
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07-12-2015, 06:49 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 05:27 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  In regards to exodus 12: 12:

First, the Egyptians were far from innocent. Pharaoh had murdered all of the infant Hebrew boys by drowning them in the Nile River (Ex. 1:22). Egypt had grown rich by enslaving the Jewish people for 400 years (Gen. 15:13). While Pharaoh carried out this plot, the Egyptian people benefited from his decision to enslave the Jews. Now, the Egyptian people were being held culpable for standing idly by, while this was happening. God had promised to curse those who cursed Israel (Gen. 12:3). If God did not act, he would have been reneging on his promise to Abraham.

Second, while Pharaoh killed every Hebrew infant boy, God only judged the firstborn of Egypt. God’s judgment was mild in comparison to Pharaoh’s judgment. Moreover, the text never states that Pharaoh’s edict (to kill the Hebrew infants) was ever rescinded. It’s possible that the Pharaoh was currently killing the Hebrew boys at the time of the plagues.

Third, some Egyptians escaped from judgment with the Hebrews. Exodus 9:20-21 demonstrates that some of Pharaoh’s own advisors were spared from judgment, during the plague of hail. Exodus 12:38 states that a “mixed multitude” of people escaped Pharaoh along with the Israelites. If these escaping Egyptian households were struck, it isn’t likely that they would flee along with the Israelites. Moreover, even the instructions for the Passover meal mentions the “alien,” who decides to participate in the Passover supper (Ex. 12:19). Therefore, when the text says that “all” of the Egyptian households were struck with a plague (Ex. 12:29), this no doubt refers to those unbelieving households.[1]

Fourth, the tenth plague was last on the list, because it was a last resort. Pharaoh had been warned by God for nine straight plagues. God had given Pharaoh multiple opportunities to change his mind and avoid judgment. Pharaoh, on the other hand, did not give the Jews any “ways out,” when he killed the Hebrew boys. While God waited patiently and gave many chances for repentance, Pharaoh gave none.

Fifth, the firstborn sons of Israel were below the age of accountability. Isaiah writes that there is an age before a child is able to “know to refuse the evil and choose the good” (Is. 7:16 NASB). The children of Israel were not held responsible for the sins of their parents during the Wandering, because they had “no knowledge of good or evil” (Deut. 1:39 NASB). David said he would go to be with his infant baby, who had died (2 Sam. 12:23). David believed in an afterlife, and he thought that he was going to be with God after death (Ps. 16:10-11), and the New Testament authors claim that he is in heaven, too (Rom. 4:6-8). This demonstrates that his infant must be in heaven. In addition, Jesus implies that little children will be in heaven (Mk. 10:14; Mt. 18:3; 19:14). Because God judged the children of Egypt, he would have brought them immediately into his presence in heaven, because they are below the age of accountability.

Sixth, God has certain moral rights over human life that we don’t. As the author and creator of life, God has a unique right over all human life. Philosopher Richard Swinburne writes, “God as the author of our being would have rights over us that we do not have over our fellow humans.”[2] To illustrate this, a parent has certain rights over their own children, which they do not have over other children (e.g. discipline). Since God is the creator and sustainer of all people, he decides how long we get to live (Ps. 139:16). God takes everyone’s life at some point. It’s called death. We acknowledge this, when a surgeon is bringing someone back to life. We say that he is “Playing God.” God allows everyone to die; the question is –when? We live everyday –not as a right –but by the mercy of God. When God took the lives of the firstborn in Egypt, he was acting on prerogatives that rightly belong to him. In fact, these Egyptian boys probably died in their sleep (“Now it came about at midnight…” Ex. 12:29). Of course, the Hebrew infants were given no such mercy, drowning in the Nile River (Ex. 1:22).

Seventh, the God who took the firstborn son gave up his own firstborn son. We would be remiss if we didn’t point this out. While we might feel horror at the fact that God would judge the firstborn of Egypt, he need to remember that we’re dealing with the same God who paid this great and terrible price himself by giving up his “only begotten son” (Jn. 3:16). While God is willing and able to judge, he was also willing to take our place in judgment.

Eight, God hardened the pharaoh's heart so He could get his rocks off by showing everyone how powerful He was. The pharaoh had no way to change or adjust his course of action due to God's "intervention."
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07-12-2015, 06:51 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 03:44 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 03:27 PM)jennybee Wrote:  For a being who is so holy and pure, God certainly does some pretty impure things in the Bible.
Example please.

When he drowned everything on the Earth in a Great Flood, he didn't exempt all the kittens! Weeping

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