Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
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07-12-2015, 06:52 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 06:51 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 03:44 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Example please.

When he drowned everything on the Earth in a Great Flood, he didn't exempt all the kittens! Weeping

It's okay, Guley. Come here and I'll comfort you Evil_monster Tongue

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07-12-2015, 06:54 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 06:52 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 06:51 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  When he drowned everything on the Earth in a Great Flood, he didn't exempt all the kittens! Weeping

It's okay, Guley. Come here and I'll comfort you Evil_monster Tongue

I'll bring a horror story for us to cuddle up and share! Hug
....
So Bible, or Koran? Tongue

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07-12-2015, 06:56 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 06:54 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 06:52 PM)jennybee Wrote:  It's okay, Guley. Come here and I'll comfort you Evil_monster Tongue

I'll bring a horror story for us to cuddle up and share! Hug
....
So Bible, or Koran? Tongue

Laugh out load

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07-12-2015, 06:58 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 06:54 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 06:52 PM)jennybee Wrote:  It's okay, Guley. Come here and I'll comfort you Evil_monster Tongue

I'll bring a horror story for us to cuddle up and share! Hug
....
So Bible, or Koran? Tongue

Why not both? But don't say which book of lies its from lol

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07-12-2015, 06:59 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 05:27 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  In regards to exodus 12: 12:

First, the Egyptians were far from innocent. Pharaoh had murdered all of the infant Hebrew boys by drowning them in the Nile River (Ex. 1:22). Egypt had grown rich by enslaving the Jewish people for 400 years (Gen. 15:13). While Pharaoh carried out this plot, the Egyptian people benefited from his decision to enslave the Jews. Now, the Egyptian people were being held culpable for standing idly by, while this was happening. God had promised to curse those who cursed Israel (Gen. 12:3). If God did not act, he would have been reneging on his promise to Abraham.

The Jews were in Egypt because they had been driven out of Canaan by a famine that plagued the region. They went to Egypt because god had forewarned Egypt to stockpile grain. In other words, god arranged the enslavement of Israel in the first place so the guilt of their enslavement is his.

Quote:Second, while Pharaoh killed every Hebrew infant boy, God only judged the firstborn of Egypt. God’s judgment was mild in comparison to Pharaoh’s judgment. Moreover, the text never states that Pharaoh’s edict (to kill the Hebrew infants) was ever rescinded. It’s possible that the Pharaoh was currently killing the Hebrew boys at the time of the plagues.

Slaughtering innocents in response to an evil act is not moral even if you limit it somewhat. You are attempting to justify blatantly immoral acts.

Quote:Third, some Egyptians escaped from judgment with the Hebrews. Exodus 9:20-21 demonstrates that some of Pharaoh’s own advisors were spared from judgment, during the plague of hail. Exodus 12:38 states that a “mixed multitude” of people escaped Pharaoh along with the Israelites. If these escaping Egyptian households were struck, it isn’t likely that they would flee along with the Israelites. Moreover, even the instructions for the Passover meal mentions the “alien,” who decides to participate in the Passover supper (Ex. 12:19). Therefore, when the text says that “all” of the Egyptian households were struck with a plague (Ex. 12:29), this no doubt refers to those unbelieving households.[1]

The text in Exodus 9 does note some exceptions. The text in Exodus 12 does not. I don't know that you have good justification for assuming any exceptions there. I think you are trying to mitigate the atrocities being outlined because you see the need for that but I don't agree that it works. All it shows is that you have a better moral sense than the writers of this story.

Quote:Fourth, the tenth plague was last on the list, because it was a last resort. Pharaoh had been warned by God for nine straight plagues. God had given Pharaoh multiple opportunities to change his mind and avoid judgment. Pharaoh, on the other hand, did not give the Jews any “ways out,” when he killed the Hebrew boys. While God waited patiently and gave many chances for repentance, Pharaoh gave none.

You can't just ignore the places where the pharaoh was going to relent but god "hardened his heart". Free will seems to have gone by the wayside when god wanted to show off.

Quote:Fifth, the firstborn sons of Israel were below the age of accountability. Isaiah writes that there is an age before a child is able to “know to refuse the evil and choose the good” (Is. 7:16 NASB). The children of Israel were not held responsible for the sins of their parents during the Wandering, because they had “no knowledge of good or evil” (Deut. 1:39 NASB). David said he would go to be with his infant baby, who had died (2 Sam. 12:23). David believed in an afterlife, and he thought that he was going to be with God after death (Ps. 16:10-11), and the New Testament authors claim that he is in heaven, too (Rom. 4:6-8). This demonstrates that his infant must be in heaven. In addition, Jesus implies that little children will be in heaven (Mk. 10:14; Mt. 18:3; 19:14). Because God judged the children of Egypt, he would have brought them immediately into his presence in heaven, because they are below the age of accountability.

Sorry, but the idea that killing a child before he can know right from wrong is somehow not as evil is beneath contempt. These children were innocent and killing them to punish their parents is simply a barbaric act.

Quote:Sixth, God has certain moral rights over human life that we don’t. As the author and creator of life, God has a unique right over all human life. ...

"I brought you into this world and I can take you out of it". It isn't moral for anybody to say that, including your god. I've heard the argument and I do not buy it for a second.

Quote:Seventh, the God who took the firstborn son gave up his own firstborn son. We would be remiss if we didn’t point this out. While we might feel horror at the fact that God would judge the firstborn of Egypt, he need to remember that we’re dealing with the same God who paid this great and terrible price himself by giving up his “only begotten son” (Jn. 3:16). While God is willing and able to judge, he was also willing to take our place in judgment.

Ignoring the question of whether Jesus is him or his son, Jesus wasn't given up. He spent 30+ years on earth (according to the story anyway), then had a really bad weekend (no worse than many people faced, and still do) and then went back to being ruler of the universe. The whole idea of substitutionary atonement is ridiculous and, in this particular case, it couldn't possibly work because the god can't be killed. It is a completely irrational concept.

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07-12-2015, 07:03 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 06:38 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 06:29 PM)Imathinker Wrote:  I reread it and pardon me if I was not inspired. I got out of it that:

1. God wasn't NEARLY as bad as pharaoh.
2. It's okay because all the infants went to heaven
3. God is allowed to slaughter people cause he made them and that's his perogative.
Am I close?
Getting there but I am certain that this is not new information for you.

No, I'm getting pretty used to all the insane theist arguments by now.

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07-12-2015, 07:03 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 05:18 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 04:00 PM)Imathinker Wrote:  [Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQnE7R234t717A8v10cAeF...s0YpmDQJ4g]

Really? Maybe start with the bears that mauled a group of boys for making fun of a bald guy. I recommend you read a little around this forum though because there is much discussion of this.

edit to add,
or Exodus 12:12,
"On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn - both men and animals - and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD."
Lemme guess, we just have to take that in context?
First, the King James Version has done us a disservice by translated the term as “children.” The Hebrew word can refer to children, but rather more specifically means "young men." The NIV, quoted here, uses the word “youths.” Second, the fact that the bears mauled 42 of the youths indicates that there were more than 42 youths involved. This was not a small group of children making fun of a bald man. Rather, it was a large demonstration of young men who assembled for the purpose of mocking a prophet of God. Third, the mocking of “go on up, you baldhead,” is more than making fun of baldness. The baldness of Elisha referred to here may be: 1) natural loss of hair; 2) a shaved head denoting his separation to the prophetic office; or more likely, 3) an epithet of scorn and contempt, Elisha not being literally bald. The phrase “go up” likely was a reference to Elijah, Elisha’s mentor, being taken up to Heaven earlier in 2 Kings chapter 2:11-12. These youths were sarcastically taunting and insulting the Lord’s prophet by telling him to repeat Elijah’s translation.

In summary, 2 Kings 2:23-24 is not an account of God mauling young children for making fun of a bald man. Rather, it is a record of an insulting demonstration against God’s prophet by a large group of young men. Because these young people of about 20 years of age or older (the same term is used of Solomon in 1 Kings 3:7) so despised the prophet of the Lord, Elisha called upon the Lord to deal with the rebels as He saw fit. The Lord’s punishment was the mauling of 42 of them by two female bears. The penalty was clearly justified, for to ridicule Elisha was to ridicule the Lord Himself. The seriousness of the crime was indicated by the seriousness of the punishment. The appalling judgment was God’s warning to all who would scorn the prophets of the Lord.

If a human carried out that same punishment---people would call him a monster.

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07-12-2015, 07:07 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
I feel like the thread is adequately derailed. My job here is complete.
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07-12-2015, 07:08 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 05:27 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  In regards to exodus 12: 12:

First, the Egyptians were far from innocent. Pharaoh had murdered all of the infant Hebrew boys by drowning them in the Nile River (Ex. 1:22). Egypt had grown rich by enslaving the Jewish people for 400 years (Gen. 15:13). While Pharaoh carried out this plot, the Egyptian people benefited from his decision to enslave the Jews. Now, the Egyptian people were being held culpable for standing idly by, while this was happening. God had promised to curse those who cursed Israel (Gen. 12:3). If God did not act, he would have been reneging on his promise to Abraham.

Second, while Pharaoh killed every Hebrew infant boy, God only judged the firstborn of Egypt. God’s judgment was mild in comparison to Pharaoh’s judgment. Moreover, the text never states that Pharaoh’s edict (to kill the Hebrew infants) was ever rescinded. It’s possible that the Pharaoh was currently killing the Hebrew boys at the time of the plagues.

Third, some Egyptians escaped from judgment with the Hebrews. Exodus 9:20-21 demonstrates that some of Pharaoh’s own advisors were spared from judgment, during the plague of hail. Exodus 12:38 states that a “mixed multitude” of people escaped Pharaoh along with the Israelites. If these escaping Egyptian households were struck, it isn’t likely that they would flee along with the Israelites. Moreover, even the instructions for the Passover meal mentions the “alien,” who decides to participate in the Passover supper (Ex. 12:19). Therefore, when the text says that “all” of the Egyptian households were struck with a plague (Ex. 12:29), this no doubt refers to those unbelieving households.[1]

Fourth, the tenth plague was last on the list, because it was a last resort. Pharaoh had been warned by God for nine straight plagues. God had given Pharaoh multiple opportunities to change his mind and avoid judgment. Pharaoh, on the other hand, did not give the Jews any “ways out,” when he killed the Hebrew boys. While God waited patiently and gave many chances for repentance, Pharaoh gave none.

Fifth, the firstborn sons of Israel were below the age of accountability. Isaiah writes that there is an age before a child is able to “know to refuse the evil and choose the good” (Is. 7:16 NASB). The children of Israel were not held responsible for the sins of their parents during the Wandering, because they had “no knowledge of good or evil” (Deut. 1:39 NASB). David said he would go to be with his infant baby, who had died (2 Sam. 12:23). David believed in an afterlife, and he thought that he was going to be with God after death (Ps. 16:10-11), and the New Testament authors claim that he is in heaven, too (Rom. 4:6-8). This demonstrates that his infant must be in heaven. In addition, Jesus implies that little children will be in heaven (Mk. 10:14; Mt. 18:3; 19:14). Because God judged the children of Egypt, he would have brought them immediately into his presence in heaven, because they are below the age of accountability.

Sixth, God has certain moral rights over human life that we don’t. As the author and creator of life, God has a unique right over all human life. Philosopher Richard Swinburne writes, “God as the author of our being would have rights over us that we do not have over our fellow humans.”[2] To illustrate this, a parent has certain rights over their own children, which they do not have over other children (e.g. discipline). Since God is the creator and sustainer of all people, he decides how long we get to live (Ps. 139:16). God takes everyone’s life at some point. It’s called death. We acknowledge this, when a surgeon is bringing someone back to life. We say that he is “Playing God.” God allows everyone to die; the question is –when? We live everyday –not as a right –but by the mercy of God. When God took the lives of the firstborn in Egypt, he was acting on prerogatives that rightly belong to him. In fact, these Egyptian boys probably died in their sleep (“Now it came about at midnight…” Ex. 12:29). Of course, the Hebrew infants were given no such mercy, drowning in the Nile River (Ex. 1:22).

Seventh, the God who took the firstborn son gave up his own firstborn son. We would be remiss if we didn’t point this out. While we might feel horror at the fact that God would judge the firstborn of Egypt, he need to remember that we’re dealing with the same God who paid this great and terrible price himself by giving up his “only begotten son” (Jn. 3:16). While God is willing and able to judge, he was also willing to take our place in judgment.

It's also important to note that God as the creator--did not have to have his son killed to make up for sins of others. Only a barbarian with the power to not let that happen does so anyway. God could have come up with another way. Why is God's answer for discipline smiting, starvation, illness, death, rape, war??? What irritates me is that Christians love to use the "God disciplines as a parent disciplines a child." Really? If a parent starved, smited, killed, etc. their child they would be brought up on serious charges and yet God gets a pass every single time by Christians.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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07-12-2015, 07:10 PM
RE: Dutch Pranksters Swap Bible Cover with Koran Cover.
(07-12-2015 07:07 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I feel like the thread is adequately derailed. My job here is complete.

I don't see how continued discussion of immoral passages in the bible is a derailment.

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