Earth's Orbital Speed
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07-08-2013, 11:20 AM (This post was last modified: 12-08-2013 01:20 AM by DeepThought.)
Earth's Orbital Speed
I was recently having a conversation with a semi-theist. No one is really sure what this person's beliefs are as they try to sit on the fence and argue the validity of Bible stories without subscribing to the idea that they are real.

Anyway...this person argued that people lived much longer in Biblical times because the planets orbited the sun much faster, so years were shorter. So...Adam living to 930 years old was 930 shorter biblical years.

But I remember reading somewhere that if Earth's orbit sped up, it would move further from the Sun, in which case a year would be longer. If Earth's orbit were to slow down, it would move closer to the Sun and a year would be shorter.

Does anyone know the science to confirm or refute this?

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07-08-2013, 11:36 AM
RE: Earth's Obital Speed
(07-08-2013 11:20 AM)jinun Wrote:  But I remember reading somewhere that if Earth's orbit sped up, it would move further from the Sun, in which case a year would be longer. If Earth's orbit were to slow down, it would move closer to the Sun and a year would be shorter.

Does anyone know the science to confirm or refute this?
That part is true.

I wish I could remember the specifics, but a quick google of it explained it using Kepler's laws of planetary motion, which was about as easy for me to read as ancient Chinese....

And just to give you an idea, Jupiter's revolution is rated at about 11.8 Earth years, which at 930 "years" would put Adam at 81 regular years..... pretty long lived for a man from that time period.

So that would put Earth's orbit slightly closer than Jupiter.
Two big problems I can see there.... 1st, that orbital range is not a very hospitable zone to be in. And 2nd, I'd imagine the first time Earth passed that close to Jupiter, the behemoth's massive gravity would reek havoc on Earth and its orbit. Tongue

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07-08-2013, 11:39 AM
RE: Earth's Obital Speed
Just ask him what made the earth slow down? there must be some humongous event to slow down a planets orbital speed. You see, there is no air in outer space to slow down a moving object, so anything out there (planets inlcuded) just keep moving as they were unless some force affects them. Also, because big things require big forces to change their motion, slowing down a planet requires a huge force, something like another planet tailgating it.

So, in few thousand years something like the slowing down of the orbital speed of earth requires a huge amount of evidence and he must provide it.

Discussing if the year would be longer or the sun would be closer is absurd if he doesn't explain how the speed would change in the first place.

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07-08-2013, 11:57 AM
RE: Earth's Obital Speed
Gonna nerd out in this thread.

You theist acquaintance has a very active imagination! I like that - it makes science fun to study. Big Grin

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07-08-2013, 12:25 PM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2013 12:48 PM by Raptor Jesus.)
RE: Earth's Obital Speed
The earth's rotation (not orbit) was faster. For example, around the time the dinosaurs lived, the earth took about 22 hours to complete a full rotation. Today it has slowed down to 24 hours for a full rotation. The object that slowed the earth's rotation down is actually the moon's gravity.

Edit: I went and looked up when the earth would have rotated at a 22 hour rate, because I didn't want to be miss stating something. A 'Scientific America' source I found states around 620 million years ago. That is WAY WAY before even any land animals lived on the earth. At a rotation of about 23 hour days it would have been closer to 350 million years. That's around the time fish started developing limbs and moving to land as amphibians. No Adam and Eve, plus that still has nothing to do with the years anyway,... so your friend is full of shit.

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07-08-2013, 12:39 PM
RE: Earth's Obital Speed
By the way, that just means the earth rotated faster, not orbited faster. Rotation has to do with length of days, orbit has to do with length of years. With a 22 hour rotation day, and the same orbital period as we have today it would simply mean that there were more days in a year, not shorter years, so the length of a year, there for the number of years in one’s life would have been the same as it is today.

Plus the first hominids we would recognize as Homo Sapiens (not Adam and Eve, they didn’t exist) would have evolved around 100,000 to 200,000 years ago depending on how you differentiate them from us or our ancestral species before them. When the earth rotated in 22 hours that was a few hundred million years ago. The earth’s rotation, thus length of days would have for all practical purposes have been the same as would the length of a year.

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07-08-2013, 12:59 PM
RE: Earth's Obital Speed
My understanding... and I don't remember where I picked this up, so please excuse the lack of sauce... is that old-testament "years" were mostly lunar months until after Exodus. They were celestial periods, tracking an easier-to-follow celestial body. If we accept this and divide those "year" figures by 13 lunar months in a solar year, we get some pretty reasonable ages. So Methuselah's son Lamech was born when he was about 15, and his total of 969 years become 74 and a half... very old for the time, but biologically quite reasonable. The flood waters receding after a "year" becomes one short month... again, quite a flood, but actually LESS than the 40 days of rain. 40 is special... biblical "40" usually means "lots," not 4x10.

This breaks down when later biblical writers try to tone down what THEY saw as implausibility, because their forebears had already switched to a solar calendar while living in Egypt, well known for tracking the sun. People got younger at death in a real hurry, and the ages in this descent don't make sense at all... Moses was 120 at death? That's unlikely to be real in either system.

All this being said, I am NOT a biblical scholar, I have no Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, etc. This is all just something I picked up in conversation.

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07-08-2013, 01:11 PM
RE: Earth's Obital Speed
Or here is another easy way to put it. An orbital period is dependent on how fast the planet (or object) is moving around the sun, or vice versa. Mercury has an orbital period of 88 days. That means if the Earth was orbiting at the speed of Mercury it would have to be in the same orbit as Mercury. If it orbited faster it would be even closer to the Sun. I hope it doesn’t need to be explained to your friend what that proximity to the Sun would do to life on Earth.

But say it somehow was as close to the Sun as Mercury, let’s consider that as far as the age of “Adam” and “Eve”. I did the math. That would mean, if the Earth was where Mercury is in order to orbit at a speed that would give the earth 88 day years, then for “Adam” to have lived to be 930 years old he still would have had to live the equivalent of 224 years on Earth as it is now. In order to make his age a more “reasonable” age but just older on a technicality of the speed of the Earth’s orbit at the time, the Earth would have had to have been closer to the Sun than even Mercury is. Significantly closer to the Sun than Mercury is.

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07-08-2013, 01:30 PM
RE: Earth's Obital Speed
(07-08-2013 12:59 PM)I Am Wrote:  My understanding... and I don't remember where I picked this up, so please excuse the lack of sauce... is that old-testament "years" were mostly lunar months until after Exodus. They were celestial periods, tracking an easier-to-follow celestial body. If we accept this and divide those "year" figures by 13 lunar months in a solar year, we get some pretty reasonable ages. So Methuselah's son Lamech was born when he was about 15, and his total of 969 years become 74 and a half... very old for the time, but biologically quite reasonable. The flood waters receding after a "year" becomes one short month... again, quite a flood, but actually LESS than the 40 days of rain. 40 is special... biblical "40" usually means "lots," not 4x10.

This breaks down when later biblical writers try to tone down what THEY saw as implausibility, because their forebears had already switched to a solar calendar while living in Egypt, well known for tracking the sun. People got younger at death in a real hurry, and the ages in this descent don't make sense at all... Moses was 120 at death? That's unlikely to be real in either system.

All this being said, I am NOT a biblical scholar, I have no Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, etc. This is all just something I picked up in conversation.

Well I don’t know about that. That would be interesting to know if that is how they tracked a year. I personally doubt it because it sounds like apologetics bullshit.

Years were tracked first and for most because of the seasons. There are all manner of different ways one can track the years using celestial objects, and when done in different ways the seasons can actually migrate through the years. That’s the reason we have leap years now. But mostly people were keeping track of years to keep track of harvest and planting schedules. The seasons have to do with harvest and planting and are controlled by the Sun. The Moon would be a far less convenient and a less obvious method for tracking a year in this sense, so I very much doubt that that is true.

Though if anyone has a source for that I would be interested in reading it. It did after all take a long time for us as people to figure out a lot of stuff and the most logical route wouldn’t have necessarily been the first.

But still the rotation and orbit of the earth thing is completely out. And even if they did simply keep odd calendars (which I'm still not buying as an explanation without anthropological evidence to support it) that still doesn't change the fact that many people today believe they literally lived for hundreds upon hundreds of years.

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07-08-2013, 02:32 PM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2013 05:10 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Earth's Obital Speed
(07-08-2013 11:20 AM)jinun Wrote:  I was recently having a conversation with a semi-theist. No one is really sure what this person's beliefs are as they try to sit on the fence and argue the validity of Bible stories without subscribing to the idea that they are real.

Anyway...this person argued that people lived much longer in Biblical times because the planets orbited the sun much faster, so years were shorter. So...Adam living to 930 years old was 930 shorter biblical years.

But I remember reading somewhere that if Earth's orbit sped up, it would move further from the Sun, in which case a year would be longer. If Earth's orbit were to slow down, it would move closer to the Sun and a year would be shorter.

Does anyone know the science to confirm or refute this?

1. There is no Biblical scholar at any major university that would agree with this bullshit. Not one. None.
2. There is no evidence that human genetics EVER allowed life spans of that length. In fact human life spans were FAR shorter, than they are today, and there are mountains of evidence for that, and not a shred of evidence that ANY mammalian, (or any other) life form had longer life spans at an earlier time. Proven by multiple radiometric dating methods, and other dating methods.
3. The mythology which the Hebrew priests used, and which was appropriated from the Sumerian myth systems into Genesis contains NOT ONE piece of scientific knowledge that was not known by any other culture of the time, and contains ONLY elements of non-scientific knowledge.
4. There is not one reason to accept the literal words, that humans with an agenda, placed in their scrolls, when they were creating, purposely, for political cohesion reasons, a "national story" (of Israel), ie the Pentateuch, to unify the post-exilic population into a cohesive political unit, (at the order of King Artaxerxes of Persia) as having some sort of "authority" for humans, 2500 years later.

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