Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
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01-04-2014, 03:21 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 03:14 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I should have clarified that God requires a blood sacrifice for forgiveness. Jesus' sacrifice offered forgiveness for all (elect) sins (God forgave because of this sacrifice).

So if "God" required a blood sacrifice for "forgiveness", than a hypothetical, "perfect", sinless goat could have worked, in respect to it needing to be a "perfect", sinless murder victim?

Also, how the sin flows through the universe, I got that accurate. It just flows from sin filled bodies, to sinless bodies being murdered? That's how the physics of "sin" works?

Did I get that right?

...
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01-04-2014, 03:21 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 03:07 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  It's a hypotetically "perfect", sinless goat, King...
It's hypotetical. Hypotetically speaking of there was a "perfect", sinless goat, then why would it not work, if that is the "reason" it worked?

Okay... I'm assuming this goat is the son of a deity and did not originate on earth and took the form of a goat when he came to earth. I guess we can go with a goat.

Quote:So let’s extrapolate this further…

So you have this hypothetical “perfect” sinless goat. The second the goat proforms one “sin”, it no longer can absolve sin forever. However, if we kill that goat early enough in it’s life before it can sin, then the earlier we kill it, the more likely it will work.

Anything of earth has sin because of our fallen human nature. It doesn't matter how early it's done. As for the perfect goat, he is incapable of sin because he's not of earth and came from a perfect deity.

Quote:So anyway, we have this hypothetical, “perfect”, sinless goat here. While it’s still alive, it has no impact on sin at all. It hast to die to do that. So we slice its throat, but it needs to bleed to death first. As it’s loosing blood, it begins to slip out of consciousness. It hasn’t yet done anything to sin.

But then it passes out from lack of oxygen in its brain. Technically it’s still alive, so no effect on sin yet. Sin is still out there in the world, in other people’s bodies.

The goat’s brain wave activity finally stops. It is now clinically dead. At the exact moment of death (which arguably, there is not one) all the sin in the world is sucked out of everyone’s bodies, and flies into the goats faster than the speed of light, so that the sin can be in the goat at the exact second of its death, taking the sin with it. But now that sin is just sitting in a dead animal body.

Where does the sin go now?

No, because of the sacrifice the sin is forgiven. Like sin was forgiven when there was an anima... errrr, a less perfect sacrifice.

Quote:And if we are all still born sinners, then how did that dead goat help us?

All sin is forgiven - past, present, and future

Quote:Let’s say, based on the laws of physics, it’s magically true that if we ask that our sin be added back in time to the sin that joined that goat before we were ever born, or ever even preformed a sin, then our sin travels back in time, like a tackeon pulse, and joins that goat at the moment of its death. But I have to chant an incantation, something like “I believe in you magical sinless goat. Please take my sin back into the past and remove it from me before I even did it, tough in the future for that event of my sin being removed I will still do the sin, but it will leave this time frame at the moment if finish this incantation.”

Is that how it works, hypothetically?

...I don't even understand what you're saying lol. Sorry.

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01-04-2014, 03:24 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 03:09 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  
(01-04-2014 02:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Well no. Everything of this world is affected by sin... including all of nature. So, the only way to have something that isn't affected by sin, it has to come from somewhere where there was no sin (heaven/Jesus/God).

Also, if everything of nature is affected by sin, no matter what, then I never did anything wrong because it's not my fault. It's natures fault, so I'm free of guilt or responsibility for any of it.

All human nature is depraved - sinful. Because of this sinful nature, it affected the entire earth. Your depraved nature leads you into sin even though your human nature is enough of a "sin". Nature is affected by sin because of the fallen human nature; not the other way around.

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01-04-2014, 03:26 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 03:21 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  
(01-04-2014 03:14 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I should have clarified that God requires a blood sacrifice for forgiveness. Jesus' sacrifice offered forgiveness for all (elect) sins (God forgave because of this sacrifice).

So if "God" required a blood sacrifice for "forgiveness", than a hypothetical, "perfect", sinless goat could have worked, in respect to it needing to be a "perfect", sinless murder victim?

Also, how the sin flows through the universe, I got that accurate. It just flows from sin filled bodies, to sinless bodies being murdered? That's how the physics of "sin" works?

Did I get that right?

Sin isn't a tangible item. It doesn't have physics. It's an action. There is no sin monster or sin virus hiding in all of us. It's an action that we take part in.

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01-04-2014, 03:47 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 03:21 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Okay... I'm assuming this goat is the son of a deity and did not originate on earth and took the form of a goat when he came to earth. I guess we can go with a goat.

Anything of earth has sin because of our fallen human nature. It doesn't matter how early it's done. As for the perfect goat, he is incapable of sin because he's not of earth and came from a perfect deity.
I don’t really know why it needs to be the son of a deity. Why can’t it just be a hypothetically sinless goat? It’s a hypothetical, we don’t need to explain the hypothetical part. But if that helps you make a hypothetical sinless goat…they fine, it’s a son of a deity for some reason.

(01-04-2014 03:21 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(01-04-2014 03:07 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  …But now that sin is just sitting in a dead animal body.

Where does the sin go now?
No, because of the sacrifice the sin is forgiven. Like sin was forgiven when there was an anima... errrr, a less perfect sacrifice.
So sin is not an actual thing? It’s just a concept?
If it’s an actual thing, then something needs to happen to it for it to go away. If it’s just “God” saying “I’ll stop holding a grudge now” then why does need this whole convoluted rigmarole of murdering a sinless creature, when he can just forgive? How does a innocent, sinless creature help “God” forgive what a completely different creature did? Is “God” incapable of forgiving without murdering something?

(01-04-2014 03:21 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(01-04-2014 03:07 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Let’s say, based on the laws of physics, it’s magically true that if we ask that our sin be added back in time to the sin that joined that goat before we were ever born, or ever even preformed a sin, then our sin travels back in time, like a tackeon pulse, and joins that goat at the moment of its death. But I have to chant an incantation, something like “I believe in you magical sinless goat. Please take my sin back into the past and remove it from me before I even did it, tough in the future for that event of my sin being removed I will still do the sin, but it will leave this time frame at the moment if finish this incantation.”

Is that how it works, hypothetically?

...I don't even understand what you're saying lol. Sorry.
I’m asking about the physical properties of “Sin”. Either “Sin” is a thing, and exist in the world, or it’s just exist in “God’s” mind (where it that “God” was even a thing).

Either “Sin” has some physical reality in the world, for which it follows some sort of natural, or “supernatural” laws and processes. There by explaining why things in nature cannot be born without it, and there are processes by which to annihilate it. And these processes are simply part of the natural world. Or they are simply in “God’s” mind, and this whole convoluted mess of murdering things actually does nothing.

In order for animal sacrifice, or “Jesus’s” arranged murder by his “father” to have had any meaning, then “sin” would need to have a physical reality, and properties, in which case it must follow some sort of physical laws, and we should be able to determine what those are.

And which seems to imply “God” is bound by those laws. “He” “himself” cannot work around the physical laws of “sin” without performing the same rituals that man had to perform.

“God” is not more powerful than the cosmic force of “sin” it would seem.

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01-04-2014, 03:50 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 03:07 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Let’s say, based on the laws of physics, it’s magically true that if we ask that our sin be added back in time to the sin that joined that goat before we were ever born, or ever even preformed a sin, then our sin travels back in time, like a tackeon pulse, and joins that goat at the moment of its death. But I have to chant an incantation, something like “I believe in you magical sinless goat. Please take my sin back into the past and remove it from me before I even did it, tough in the future for that event of my sin being removed I will still do the sin, but it will leave this time frame at the moment if finish this incantation.”

Is that how it works, hypothetically?

I get what you are saying and yes, it's that convoluted I think.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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01-04-2014, 03:50 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 03:26 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(01-04-2014 03:21 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  So if "God" required a blood sacrifice for "forgiveness", than a hypothetical, "perfect", sinless goat could have worked, in respect to it needing to be a "perfect", sinless murder victim?

Also, how the sin flows through the universe, I got that accurate. It just flows from sin filled bodies, to sinless bodies being murdered? That's how the physics of "sin" works?

Did I get that right?

Sin isn't a tangible item. It doesn't have physics. It's an action. There is no sin monster or sin virus hiding in all of us. It's an action that we take part in.

So then "God" didn't ever need us to murder things for "sin", and "God" never needed the scapegoat "Jesus" murdered for "sin", because it's not an actual thing with physical properties, requiring this whole procedure of a perfect sinless body dying to physically remove it.

"God" could have just "forgiven" us with no murdering neeeded?

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01-04-2014, 03:53 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
X-ian view
We are born unworthy, we live our lifes unworthy
We are filthy and we deserve to be punished
Jesus was born perfect, he lived perfectly
He is perfect and is undeserving of punishment
Jesus died for us so that we can go to heaven unpunished
Jesus was undeserving of punishment and yet he accepted our punishment on our behalf.
We owe Jesus everything. We are not worthy.

Atheist view
It makes no sense that a person can delegate responsibility for one's own actions onto another person.
It makes no sense that death is payment for anything.
It makes no sense that babies are born unworthy sinners (except for Jesus as a special case).
It makes no sense that an event that occured before I was born is payment for the "sins" of my birth and life.

X-ian response to atheist view
We are human that's why it makes no sense.
God and Jesus are perfect, open your heart, accept your saviour and enjoy eternity in heaven.

Atheist response to X-ian view

Rolleyes

Businessman view
I want to make money.
If I can break a person down, make them feel not worthy (instill guilt for being human, make them lose their confidence in decision making)
Then tell them I have the solution to their problem (offer them salvation, guide them in making their decisions)
They will become dependant on me, I can then sell them my services
I can also upsell by getting them to indoctorine their children and tell them it is their duty to recruit others into my business.
Oh, I'm going to be very rich.
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01-04-2014, 03:55 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
This is an interesting concept, the corpse of the sacrifice becomes an infinite sin storage unit or absorber but the sin-osmosis only works if the corpse is completely empty of sin when the process begins.

Do you suppose sin is a particle or a sin-wave, or both? Could we do sin double slit experiments?

"While religions tell us next to nothing useful or true about the universe, they do tell us an enormous amount - perhaps an embarrassing amount - about ourselves, about what we value, fear and lust after." Iain M Banks
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01-04-2014, 04:08 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 03:55 PM)daylightisabadthing Wrote:  This is an interesting concept, the corpse of the sacrifice becomes an infinite sin storage unit or absorber but the sin-osmosis only works if the corpse is completely empty of sin when the process begins.

Do you suppose sin is a particle or a sin-wave, or both? Could we do sin double slit experiments?

You understand what I'm getting at.

What the fuck are the physics of "sin"? And if there are none, as KC has said, then why act as if there are by attempting to do actions, like murdering innocent creatures to suck up the sin?

It's either physical, or it's just "God" deciding to forgive or not, and in deciding to forgive, doing it in an extremely unnecessary, and complicated way, in which still is him simply deciding to say...”okay, I won't hold a grudge now that you did all this meaningless stuff. Now I want you all to have the exact same hair cut as me (Kim Jong Un, reference), and cut off the tips of your penises, until I stop caring about that for some unknown reason other than for convenience purposes.

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