Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
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01-04-2014, 04:14 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
I don't think you're being fair about this. There are plenty of actions that result in something that's not physical. For instance, smiling at someone has a positive effect on someone, and even more closely related, saying "I forgive you" and hugging someone can creates forgiveness and an understanding of forgiveness.

As to the "why". Why did He do it like this? I have no idea. I can't answer that. That is the way He set up the covenant; likewise, it is action that results in a forgiveness of sin.

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01-04-2014, 04:25 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 04:14 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  it is action that results in a forgiveness of sin.
Forgiveness can only be achieved via the mindset of the one (grump) whom owns the grudge/hate/bitterness.

The person whose actions are blamed by the grump, they have no ability to forgive on behalf of the grump nor to remove the grudge/hate/bitterness from the grump.

Killing a goat or a lamb or a person can only have an effect if for some (illogical) reason the grumpy one demands and accepts this sacrifice as atonement. But even in this case it isn't the sacrifice that causes forgiveness. It is the grumpy ones willingness to forgive and move on.
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01-04-2014, 05:07 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 04:14 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  ...
As to the "why". Why did He do it like this? I have no idea. I can't answer that. ...

And that makes no sense to me.

(01-04-2014 04:14 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I don't think you're being fair about this. There are plenty of actions that result in something that's not physical. For instance, smiling at someone has a positive effect on someone, and even more closely related, saying "I forgive you" and hugging someone can creates forgiveness and an understanding of forgiveness....

But those aren't intrinsic forces in the universe, as "sin" is portrayed to be.

Love, for example, isn’t a thing that inherently physically exist as a force or thing. It is a descriptive word to describe a set of actions carried out between higher enough thinking organisms to behave in such a set of defined patterns of it, in expression of it as we have come to describe and label it. And as a description of a set of feelings, that are the result of evolutionary, physiological, biological processes of and in the brain.

But actual love, the concept of actual love, is not an actual thing that exist outside of the meaning we apply to it for ourselves and others. But unlike the concept of “sin” at least love has a basis in reality; it’s a “part” or aspect of my physical brain in action. “Sin” is not even that. "Sin" is not even a thing that can be applied to other physical reality, other than to claim an assert what it is.

Like the idea of "sin" we can treat love as though it were a thing, speak of it as such, but nothing can be done with it. It's in our heads, not a physical reality in the sense of an actual thing. Love is not a thing that if I can't get rid of it for an ex that I no longer want to feel it for, I can simply place that particular, specific quantity of love for that ex on a passing asteroid, (as "scapegoate" asteroid, as it were) and watch it whip away in space. But this is how "Sin" is spoken of.

That's not how these things work. Sin is not an actual real thing. It's an idea, a concept in one's head, in their mind. But even less so than love, because sin is not attached to chemical reactions, or biological processes that can be studied. It's an abstract concept like the aether, or phlogiston. The concept of it can be understood, but it has no physical reality other than a definition we create to explain something else that doesn't exist, yet we created as well.

We, as humans, created a concept, and created another concept that determins that concept, and created a concept by which the second concept could remove the first concept.

...
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01-04-2014, 06:42 PM (This post was last modified: 01-04-2014 06:56 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 03:21 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  
(01-04-2014 03:14 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I should have clarified that God requires a blood sacrifice for forgiveness. Jesus' sacrifice offered forgiveness for all (elect) sins (God forgave because of this sacrifice).

So if "God" required a blood sacrifice for "forgiveness", than a hypothetical, "perfect", sinless goat could have worked, in respect to it needing to be a "perfect", sinless murder victim?

Also, how the sin flows through the universe, I got that accurate. It just flows from sin filled bodies, to sinless bodies being murdered? That's how the physics of "sin" works?

Did I get that right?

Ah...but there's no such thing as a sinless goat. They're dirty little buggers....with shifty little eyes.
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01-04-2014, 06:47 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 03:53 PM)Stevil Wrote:  X-ian view
We are born unworthy, we live our lifes unworthy
We are filthy and we deserve to be punished
Jesus was born perfect, he lived perfectly
He is perfect and is undeserving of punishment
Jesus died for us so that we can go to heaven unpunished
Jesus was undeserving of punishment and yet he accepted our punishment on our behalf.
We owe Jesus everything. We are not worthy.

Atheist view
It makes no sense that a person can delegate responsibility for one's own actions onto another person.
It makes no sense that death is payment for anything.
It makes no sense that babies are born unworthy sinners (except for Jesus as a special case).
It makes no sense that an event that occured before I was born is payment for the "sins" of my birth and life.

X-ian response to atheist view
We are human that's why it makes no sense.
God and Jesus are perfect, open your heart, accept your saviour and enjoy eternity in heaven.

Atheist response to X-ian view

Rolleyes

Businessman view
I want to make money.
If I can break a person down, make them feel not worthy (instill guilt for being human, make them lose their confidence in decision making)
Then tell them I have the solution to their problem (offer them salvation, guide them in making their decisions)
They will become dependant on me, I can then sell them my services
I can also upsell by getting them to indoctorine their children and tell them it is their duty to recruit others into my business.
Oh, I'm going to be very rich.

Beautiful!

That's it in a nutshell
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01-04-2014, 06:55 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 04:14 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I don't think you're being fair about this. There are plenty of actions that result in something that's not physical. For instance, smiling at someone has a positive effect on someone, and even more closely related, saying "I forgive you" and hugging someone can creates forgiveness and an understanding of forgiveness.

As to the "why". Why did He do it like this? I have no idea. I can't answer that. That is the way He set up the covenant; likewise, it is action that results in a forgiveness of sin.

I know "why." Paul ruminated over what his "Christ" was and how he could use "him" to control people's behaviour...and VOILA....Chrstian theology was born.
The Christian world has been confused about it ever since because there's nothing logical about Paul's ramblings. Once you accept Paul was a deluded over imaginative odd-ball the air clears. Took me a few months to work it out.
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01-04-2014, 06:58 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 06:55 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I know "why." Paul ruminated over what his "Christ" was and how he could use "him" to control people's behaviour...and VOILA....Chrstian theology was born.
The Christian world has been confused about it ever since because there's nothing logical about Paul's ramblings. Once you accept Paul was a deluded over imaginative odd-ball the air clears. Took me a few months to work it out.

And that is religion in a nutshell...is it not?

...
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01-04-2014, 07:59 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 05:07 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  "Sin" is not even a thing that can be applied to other physical reality, other than to claim an assert what it is.
I've been thinking about this thread, for just a brief moment, as I went for a walk today.
When I try to understand something, I often find myself framing it up from a different (unusual) perspective, probably because I think we are already used to viewing the situation from the traditional perspective.

Lexicon
Here we have the concepts/issues of "Sin", and "Forgiveness"
Lets not take "Sin" to be specifically something against a god, but more generally lets take sin to be an aggrievance against a person whom feels aggrieved.
Aggrieved - Feeling resentment at having been unfairly treated.
Resentment - the experience of a negative emotion felt as a result of a real or imagined wrong done.
So Sin = an instance of aggrievance
To Sin is to aggrieve
To have Sinned is to have caused an aggrievance
To be a Sinner is to be an agent that has caused aggrievances
To be Sinning is to be an agent that is currently performing an aggrievance

You can't aggrieve if there is noone to feel aggrieved so we need two actors:
Aggrieved - the person whom holds the feelings of having been unfairly treated.
Aggrievee - the person whom is the object of the aggreivance i.e. percieved by the Aggrieved as having caused the aggrevance.

Problem statement:
The Aggrieved holds resentment against the Aggrievee due to an Aggrievance that the Aggrieved believes to be the the fault of the Aggrievee.
This is what it visually looks like:
[Image: Aggrievance.gif]

Resentment is a "state of being" held by the Aggrieved. Resentment is thus a property belonging to the Aggrieved.
Sin is visible only to the aggrieved and is relative to their relationship with the aggrievee thus it is a property of the (one way) Relationship attribute belonging to the Aggrieved which links the Aggrieved to the Aggrievee.
The Aggrievee also has a (one way)Relationship attribute linking the Aggrievee to the Aggrieved however this attribute does not own a Sin property.
The only actor that can view (or modify) the Resentment property is the actor that owns the Resentment property. In this instance that is the Aggrieved.
The only actor that can view (or modify) the Sin property is the actor that owns the Relationship attribute which holds this property. In this circumstance the owning actor is the Aggrieved.

Solution:
In order to remove the Resentment and Sin properties there needs to be a Forgive method belonging to the Actor which owns those properties. In this instance the method needs to belong to the Aggrieved actor. This method is a private method and cannot be instantiated by external actors e.g. the Aggrievee.

Summary
The problem and the solution quite clearly reside with the Aggrieved.
The Aggrievee has no ability modify the Resentment or Sin properties and no ability to run the Forgive method.
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01-04-2014, 08:56 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
Remember it's a huge deal that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine. Another one of those nonsensical cognitive dissonance generating doctrines on par with the trinity, that no one can explain. So they use a fancy sounding term, hypostatic union. Human sin requires a human sacrifice. Although the son of a motherless goat might work in theory.

God's holiness requires that sin be punished. The sacrifice must itself require no forgiveness in order to be worthy of bearing the sins of others, and sufficiently divine such that it can pay the entire penalty with change leftover.

God is obsessed with blood. So much so that countless animals were burned up, their meat wasted for god's bloodthirstiness, violating even basic hunting ethics.
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01-04-2014, 09:01 PM (This post was last modified: 01-04-2014 09:07 PM by freetoreason.)
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
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