Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
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01-04-2014, 10:46 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 07:59 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-04-2014 05:07 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  "Sin" is not even a thing that can be applied to other physical reality, other than to claim an assert what it is.
I've been thinking about this thread, for just a brief moment, as I went for a walk today.
When I try to understand something, I often find myself framing it up from a different (unusual) perspective, probably because I think we are already used to viewing the situation from the traditional perspective.

Lexicon
Here we have the concepts/issues of "Sin", and "Forgiveness"
Lets not take "Sin" to be specifically something against a god, but more generally lets take sin to be an aggrievance against a person whom feels aggrieved.
Aggrieved - Feeling resentment at having been unfairly treated.
Resentment - the experience of a negative emotion felt as a result of a real or imagined wrong done.
So Sin = an instance of aggrievance
To Sin is to aggrieve
To have Sinned is to have caused an aggrievance
To be a Sinner is to be an agent that has caused aggrievances
To be Sinning is to be an agent that is currently performing an aggrievance

You can't aggrieve if there is noone to feel aggrieved so we need two actors:
Aggrieved - the person whom holds the feelings of having been unfairly treated.
Aggrievee - the person whom is the object of the aggreivance i.e. percieved by the Aggrieved as having caused the aggrevance.

Problem statement:
The Aggrieved holds resentment against the Aggrievee due to an Aggrievance that the Aggrieved believes to be the the fault of the Aggrievee.
This is what it visually looks like:
[Image: Aggrievance.gif]

Resentment is a "state of being" held by the Aggrieved. Resentment is thus a property belonging to the Aggrieved.
Sin is visible only to the aggrieved and is relative to their relationship with the aggrievee thus it is a property of the (one way) Relationship attribute belonging to the Aggrieved which links the Aggrieved to the Aggrievee.
The Aggrievee also has a (one way)Relationship attribute linking the Aggrievee to the Aggrieved however this attribute does not own a Sin property.
The only actor that can view (or modify) the Resentment property is the actor that owns the Resentment property. In this instance that is the Aggrieved.
The only actor that can view (or modify) the Sin property is the actor that owns the Relationship attribute which holds this property. In this circumstance the owning actor is the Aggrieved.

Solution:
In order to remove the Resentment and Sin properties there needs to be a Forgive method belonging to the Actor which owns those properties. In this instance the method needs to belong to the Aggrieved actor. This method is a private method and cannot be instantiated by external actors e.g. the Aggrievee.

Summary
The problem and the solution quite clearly reside with the Aggrieved.
The Aggrievee has no ability modify the Resentment or Sin properties and no ability to run the Forgive method.

Exactly.

If you hurt someone, it's got nothing to do with a hypothetical god, or a god's sacrificial death.

You just need to apologise and promise not to do it again.

The whole stupid arrangement was contrived to get priests involved in peoples' private affairs.
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01-04-2014, 11:06 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 10:46 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Exactly.

If you hurt someone, it's got nothing to do with a hypothetical god, or a god's sacrificial death.

You just need to apologise and promise not to do it again.

The whole stupid arrangement was contrived to get priests involved in peoples' private affairs.

Cut out the middle man and take responsibility for your own actions. Pretending an imaginary third-party can absolve you of your responsibility/guilt is frighteningly fucked up, and I'd also argue it's very immoral.

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01-04-2014, 11:16 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 11:06 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(01-04-2014 10:46 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Exactly.

If you hurt someone, it's got nothing to do with a hypothetical god, or a god's sacrificial death.

You just need to apologise and promise not to do it again.

The whole stupid arrangement was contrived to get priests involved in peoples' private affairs.

Cut out the middle man and take responsibility for your own actions. Pretending an imaginary third-party can absolve you of your responsibility/guilt is frighteningly fucked up, and I'd also argue it's very immoral.

Absolutely.

If the "sin' is serious enough, call in the lawyers or the police.

God, Jeebus and priests should stay the fuck out of it.
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01-04-2014, 11:29 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
The whole "blood sacrifice" in order to absorb, and take away our "sin" is nonsense. If someone rapes and murders a young child, but then their sin is "washed away" by Jesus's "sacrifice"....sorry, but that asshole still raped and murdered a kid. That's still a thing regardless of any other event that ever happens.

Even if this Jesus bullshit were true, and some "thing" called "sin" really did "leave" that child rapist/murderer...even if we accept the premise that some literal thing called "sin" is now gone from him...he still actually did murder and rape a child. No amount of pretending that magically is not a thing that happened, or that the weight and meaning of it is now gone, no amount of magical thinking undoes the fact that it did actually happen.

Even if we accepted the concept of "sin", and that it could be removed, it still doesn't mean anything because the people who did the things they did still did do them. It's meaningless to say there is a thing separate from the act that matters, and that separate thing can be removed despite the thing still happening.

"Sin" is pointless tripe of a concept...

...
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01-04-2014, 11:36 PM (This post was last modified: 02-04-2014 06:07 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 08:56 PM)freetoreason Wrote:  Remember it's a huge deal that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine. Another one of those nonsensical cognitive dissonance generating doctrines on par with the trinity, that no one can explain. So they use a fancy sounding term, hypostatic union. Human sin requires a human sacrifice. Although the son of a motherless goat might work in theory.

God's holiness requires that sin be punished. The sacrifice must itself require no forgiveness in order to be worthy of bearing the sins of others, and sufficiently divine such that it can pay the entire penalty with change leftover.

God is obsessed with blood. So much so that countless animals were burned up, their meat wasted for god's bloodthirstiness, violating even basic hunting ethics.

Simon Shama, (the English historian) when talking about Judaism's history on PBS's new series (... in which BTW he blatantly ignored the KNOWN facts about the ancient parts), but he was talking about the Medieval period when they cooked up "original sin" and the trinity. He said sarcastically "Three ? Why not five?". And I thought "Now THERE'S a better god for modern humans. Father, son, Holy Mother, Holy Kitty Cat and Holy Dog". Now there's a nice Holy Quintuple we all can relate to. Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-04-2014, 12:01 AM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 11:36 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(01-04-2014 08:56 PM)freetoreason Wrote:  Remember it's a huge deal that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine. Another one of those nonsensical cognitive dissonance generating doctrines on par with the trinity, that no one can explain. So they use a fancy sounding term, hypostatic union. Human sin requires a human sacrifice. Although the son of a motherless goat might work in theory.

God's holiness requires that sin be punished. The sacrifice must itself require no forgiveness in order to be worthy of bearing the sins of others, and sufficiently divine such that it can pay the entire penalty with change leftover.

God is obsessed with blood. So much so that countless animals were burned up, their meat wasted for god's bloodthirstiness, violating even basic hunting ethics.

Simon Shama, (the English historian) when talking about Judaism's history on PBS's new series (... which BTW he blatantly ignored the KNOWN facts about the ancient parts), but he was talking about the Medieval period when they cooked up "original sin" and the trinity. He said sarcastically "Three ? Why not five?". And I thought "Now THERE'S a better god for modern humans. Father, son, Holy Mother, Holy Kitty Cat and Holy Dog". Now there's a nice Holy Quintuple we all can relate to. Weeping

"Father, son, Holy Mother, Holy Kitty Cat and Holy Dog".

Whoever blasphemes against the holy pussy will never be forgiven.
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02-04-2014, 12:49 AM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(02-04-2014 12:01 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(01-04-2014 11:36 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Simon Shama, (the English historian) when talking about Judaism's history on PBS's new series (... which BTW he blatantly ignored the KNOWN facts about the ancient parts), but he was talking about the Medieval period when they cooked up "original sin" and the trinity. He said sarcastically "Three ? Why not five?". And I thought "Now THERE'S a better god for modern humans. Father, son, Holy Mother, Holy Kitty Cat and Holy Dog". Now there's a nice Holy Quintuple we all can relate to. Weeping

"Father, son, Holy Mother, Holy Kitty Cat and Holy Dog".

Whoever blasphemes against the holy pussy will never be forgiven.

[Image: LOLCat_Bible.jpg]

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02-04-2014, 07:46 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 04:14 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I don't think you're being fair about this.

Oh, My, my Fine Fellow Coonass Friend...

Quote: There are plenty of actions that result in something that's not physical. For instance, smiling at someone has a positive effect on someone, and even more closely related, saying "I forgive you" and hugging someone can creates forgiveness and an understanding of forgiveness.

That's a far cry from a sky fairy demanding blood and death in exchange for forgiveness. Which simply doesn't follow. Makes absolutely no sense at all. Non Sequitur. It's stupid. Really. Think about it.


Quote:As to the "why". Why did He do it like this?

"He", who? The imaginary sky fairy, or the person who made it up? <-----THAT'S who really needs his head examined.Too bad he's long dead and can't be called to answer for his batshit stories.

Quote: I have no idea. I can't answer that. That is the way He set up the covenant; likewise, it is action that results in a forgiveness of sin.
Special Pleading is Special. C'mon, KC, you're a helluva lot smarter than that. Really.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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02-04-2014, 09:52 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 11:06 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(01-04-2014 10:46 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Exactly.

If you hurt someone, it's got nothing to do with a hypothetical god, or a god's sacrificial death.

You just need to apologise and promise not to do it again.

The whole stupid arrangement was contrived to get priests involved in peoples' private affairs.

Cut out the middle man and take responsibility for your own actions. Pretending an imaginary third-party can absolve you of your responsibility/guilt is frighteningly fucked up, and I'd also argue it's very immoral.

Oh shit! I keep forgetting that I am legally a reverend now! So you are wrong, evolutionkills. I can absolve them of their sins. I'm the guy! Thumbsup

...
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02-04-2014, 09:56 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(02-04-2014 09:52 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  
(01-04-2014 11:06 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Cut out the middle man and take responsibility for your own actions. Pretending an imaginary third-party can absolve you of your responsibility/guilt is frighteningly fucked up, and I'd also argue it's very immoral.

Oh shit! I keep forgetting that I am legally a reverend now! So you are wrong, evolutionkills. I can absolve them of their sins. I'm the guy! Thumbsup

So, are you saying that you too are imaginary? Consider

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