Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
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03-04-2014, 05:28 AM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
I get so confused with Christian doctrine.

JC died for our sins, which I take to mean wipe them clean, give us a clean slate. Am I miss informed about this one?

But...if human nature itself is 'enough of a sin' what was the point of JC's death? Or, the point of him popping down to grace us with his presence at all for that matter?

If we are all still sinful by nature then the whole crucifixion thing was just a pointless, barbaric waste if time. If it had no effect at all on our sinful nature and we still possess a 'depraved nature' then why would god go to such extreme lengths and put on a horrendously violent show, as it seems to me it didn't do what it said on the tin...so to speak and we are in the same state we were in before?

"The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species." - Christopher Hitchens

"Remember kids, if you don't sin, then Jesus died for nothing. Have a great day!" - Ricky Gervais
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03-04-2014, 05:55 AM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(03-04-2014 05:28 AM)Eva Wrote:  I get so confused with Christian doctrine.

JC died for our sins, which I take to mean wipe them clean, give us a clean slate. Am I miss informed about this one?

But...if human nature itself is 'enough of a sin' what was the point of JC's death? Or, the point of him popping down to grace us with his presence at all for that matter?

If we are all still sinful by nature then the whole crucifixion thing was just a pointless, barbaric waste if time. If it had no effect at all on our sinful nature and we still possess a 'depraved nature' then why would god go to such extreme lengths and put on a horrendously violent show, as it seems to me it didn't do what it said on the tin...so to speak and we are in the same state we were in before?

Lets of course not forget that this supposed cleaning of the slate is not free or universal, and only occurs if you have both heard of the story and accepted it as true regardless of how unbelievable it is.

If this is a test of from the god Yahweh, then he's not testing our moral convictions; he's testing our credulity... Dodgy

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03-04-2014, 06:05 AM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
That's the point, you are still sin filled jc did the cross bit that we don't automatically go to hell for our nature, but only if you follow him.

The washing away doesn't stick see, you have to repent that you are a terrible person for just being alive, then you get forgiven. But you have to keep doing it over and over. See you don't have to kill a chicken or goat now for YHWH to forgive anymore. That is all the torture and blood magic bit with the cross did.

The requirement of evidence to back your claim does not disappear because it hurts your feelings, reality does not care about your feefees.
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03-04-2014, 06:26 AM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
I hate to tell you all this, but you are all wrong.

People think Jesus was the mesiah but in actuality it is MEL GIBSON. See how his name demands all caps¿

Anyway, so the story goes, and what a guy on a train told me is this; Yawwah or wah wah or Hooplah or whatever his name is, is a film buff. The whole thing was set up so MEL GIBSON could make a movie one day.

This movie would have everything. Blood, guts, even carpentry and cleaning ladies mopping up fake blood.

TEARS! That is what the producers told Hooplah. "Get 'em sobbing and it'll be a smash!". "But what language shall we dub it in?" asked an excited Wah wah. "It wont matter, the punters have no clue." interjected the agent.

"What about music?" asked Sand bah. " "We'll get Lalo Schiffrin" said the agent.

"NO JEWS!!!" screamed MEL GIBSON!

So what happened? I hear you ask, well, some Italians kicked the crap out of a Jew, nobody could understand a word, but it did make a tidy profit.

"A good little earner" the agent was heard to say.

"Had 'em bawling" the producer said with a glint in his eye.

"So, what about a sequel?" Yappa was heard to ask......

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03-04-2014, 06:29 AM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
If I for on minute thought any of this waffled doctrine were true I suppose I would be grateful that I would no longer have to sacrifice a bunch of doves when it's my time of the month as I have a busy life and do not have time for this nor the funds to buy the amount of cleaning products I would need to clean up afterwards.

I know this subject comes up time and time again and gets pointed out over and over but really...this is the best plan an all powerful god can come up with! Inflict pain and torment on his own son so people no longer have to sacrifice animals (which was a crap plan to begin with) to get into his crappy club so I can spend eternity telling him how great he is. Which just sounds to me like an eternity of emotionally draining, ego stroking. I've dated guys who want constant ego stroking and it is exhausting.

How about no sacrifices of animals or people in the first place and if you want me to think of you as a father figure I can turn to, rely on and would want to spend an eternity with, then damn well act like one and stop dicking around with blood and death and mixed, confusing messages! My emotional boundaries are far too healthy for me to hang around a guy like that let alone tell him he's great.

"The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species." - Christopher Hitchens

"Remember kids, if you don't sin, then Jesus died for nothing. Have a great day!" - Ricky Gervais
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03-04-2014, 07:34 AM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
There's also the issue of the sacrifice itself. He hit the cross Friday afternoon, and died that evening (though in reality it takes longer), then rose from the dead on Sunday morning. So, he was dead for a day and a half, then he was/is just fine.
There's no conscious or subconscious activity while dead, so as far as he's concerned he just time-travelled ahead 36 hours. He wakes up and continues on as if nothing happened. Millennia later he's still alive and people talk to him daily while he makes his face appear on toast. I don't see the sacrifice. If I were to sacrifice my arm (dismember it) to save my children, it doesn't grow back—that would be a much greater sacrifice.

A true sacrifice should have permanency, especially if it is so important as to potentially affect every human that will ever exist.

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03-04-2014, 08:34 AM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(03-04-2014 07:34 AM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  He hit the cross Friday afternoon, and died that evening (though in reality it takes longer), then rose from the dead on Sunday morning.

Isn't that in just one of the accounts though? I sure he 'hits the cross' (brilliantly phrased Laugh out load ) on a Sunday in another if I remember it correctly from Bart Erhman's book. Something to do with one author wanting him to be symbolic of the sacrificial passover lamb and the other author wanting...err...something else...but I can't remember what the Sunday death symbolically was.

But yeah, not much of a sacrifice, albeit painful, if you come back and you know you're coming back. Bit of an empty, pointless event really. He suffered for a weekend, then was OK again. Not like a cancer victim or Aids sufferer who endure for much longer and then die and do not come back.

"The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species." - Christopher Hitchens

"Remember kids, if you don't sin, then Jesus died for nothing. Have a great day!" - Ricky Gervais
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03-04-2014, 09:34 AM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(02-04-2014 07:46 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Special Pleading is Special. C'mon, KC, you're a helluva lot smarter than that. Really.

Saying "I don't know" isn't special pleading. It's simply saying "I don't have the answer to that question".

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03-04-2014, 09:39 AM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(02-04-2014 10:38 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Shocking

Isn't part of the story that humans were made in His image both physically and spiritually? If human nature is depraved then so must be the makers AS PER YOUR BELIEFS.

Fallen human nature...I can't even begin to tell you how absolutely non-sensical that is to me.

Depraved. Wow. This is what we all are huh?

de·praved adjective \di-ˈprāvd\
: very evil : having or showing an evil and immoral character

Is this how you think of yourself? Of us? Of me?

I love my wife, family, friends. I empathize and sympathize and help others and yet as a human my nature is depravity? Your teachings claim this? It is a blatant attack on our humanity. It is a claim to subjugate the human spirit.

My brother, the only depravity I see is believing and then teaching other human beings these ideas. That IS truly immoral and dare I say evil.

I understand your shock. But, keep in mind that "depraved" is a theological term. It references human nature as compared to God's nature.

This also goes back to morality. You and I, we're both good people. We love. We share. We empathize. We would be consider morally good under normal human morality.

So, don't get took hooked in to words such as that; likewise, I need to not use theological terms because it's not fair for reader that doesn't know about them. Sorry about that.

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03-04-2014, 10:12 AM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(03-04-2014 09:39 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(02-04-2014 10:38 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Shocking

Isn't part of the story that humans were made in His image both physically and spiritually? If human nature is depraved then so must be the makers AS PER YOUR BELIEFS.

Fallen human nature...I can't even begin to tell you how absolutely non-sensical that is to me.

Depraved. Wow. This is what we all are huh?

de·praved adjective \di-ˈprāvd\
: very evil : having or showing an evil and immoral character

Is this how you think of yourself? Of us? Of me?

I love my wife, family, friends. I empathize and sympathize and help others and yet as a human my nature is depravity? Your teachings claim this? It is a blatant attack on our humanity. It is a claim to subjugate the human spirit.

My brother, the only depravity I see is believing and then teaching other human beings these ideas. That IS truly immoral and dare I say evil.

I understand your shock. But, keep in mind that "depraved" is a theological term. It references human nature as compared to God's nature.

This also goes back to morality. You and I, we're both good people. We love. We share. We empathize. We would be consider morally good under normal human morality.

So, don't get took hooked in to words such as that; likewise, I need to not use theological terms because it's not fair for reader that doesn't know about them. Sorry about that.

I don't know how to respond to this.

It reminds me of when laymen poo-poo a theory not knowing the scientific implications of how a collective of facts constitutes a Theory. There is the common usage and the professional usage and meaning.

Still, the word depraved has such negative connotations that I cannot help but be disgusted by its usage to describe us.

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