Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
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03-04-2014, 10:19 AM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(03-04-2014 10:12 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I don't know how to respond to this.

It reminds me of when laymen poo-poo a theory not knowing the scientific implications of how a collective of facts constitutes a Theory. There is the common usage and the professional usage and meaning.

Still, the word depraved has such negative connotations that I cannot help but be disgusted by its usage to describe us.

Yeah, I know. And, that was my mistake.

But, please don't think that I believe all humans are morally corrupt. That's not what I meant at all.

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03-04-2014, 12:38 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(01-04-2014 10:46 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  If you hurt someone, it's got nothing to do with a hypothetical god, or a god's sacrificial death.

You just need to apologise and promise not to do it again.

The whole stupid arrangement was contrived to get priests involved in peoples' private affairs.

You don't need to apologise in order to be forgiven.
The only thing that needs to happen, in order to be forgiven, is for the aggrieved to choose to forgive you.

Your own apology fills the purpose of showing that you recognise that you have aggrieved the other person and that you are implying that you won't do it again, thus you are trying to regain trust.

It takes a very bitter and twisted person to hold a grudge for a long duration. An extremely bitter and twisted person to continue to hold a grudge long after the object of their hatred has died. It would take a sick and demented, bitter and twisted person to want to pull a person back from death in order to torture them for eternity just because they are unable to forgive, unable to let go of their own hatred towards that person.

It seems that the Christian god if it subscribes to sin and insists on blood sacrifice and insists people repent and accept a blood sacrifice otherwise it dishes out torture. This god is sick and demented, bitter and twisted, full of hatred!
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03-04-2014, 06:22 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(03-04-2014 09:34 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(02-04-2014 07:46 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Special Pleading is Special. C'mon, KC, you're a helluva lot smarter than that. Really.

Saying "I don't know" isn't special pleading. It's simply saying "I don't have the answer to that question".

Re "I don't have the answer to that question".

I do. The whole ridiculous concept was invented by Paul. Jeebus (if he ever even existed) was just a Jweish dude who got in trouble with Rome for trying to start a war. He never had the bizarre idea his death atoned for anything. All the theological mumbo jumbo was made up by the over imaginative Paul many years later...

Christ’s Sacrificial Death
Paul invented the kooky concept that Christ was crucified to save souls from their sins. Why have plenty of people accepted this peculiar idea?

Having the son of God become human, and free the faithful from the guilt and consequences of their sins, was an attractive story for a credulous congregation. It meant God was no longer a distant impersonal deity, but someone more like them, with whom they could identify. Christ became an ally, a great guy, and everyone’s best friend. He would personally shoulder your punishment, provided you believed in him. Do that, and Paul promised you a free pass to salvation. Churches have since saturated people’s minds with this plan; today’s evangelical Christians, in particular, rarely question it. This is why they insist on believing in Jesus; so that sins can be forgiven and entry into heaven attained.

Yet the argument is irrational. Why would the son of God need to sacrifice himself to appease his father, who was also himself, for the sins of the world? Is not sacrificing anyone a pointless, barbaric act that punishes a scapegoat? Why would faith in this sacrifice be a ticket for entry into heaven? There has never been a good explanation for this nonsense despite numerous contrived attempts by theologians, because no sensible explanation is possible. (http://atheistfoundation.org.au/article/...atonement/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...zuxyq3ltls ).
Sin
Why would anyone agree with Paul’s delusions about sin? Most people consider sin a deliberate act that results in harm, usually to another person. Yet Paul claimed sin can be something one’s born with, like a birth defect. (http://atheism.about.com/od/thebible/a/o...lsin.htm). This is a dim-witted idea, as a newborn can’t deliberately cause harm, so can’t sin. Paul is the only New Testament author to discuss this concept of “original sin,” as further articulated by Tertullian of Carthage (AD 150-225) and Augustine of Hippo (354–430 CE.) It’s a nasty notion. People are told they’re basically bad - because they were born. It makes them dislike themselves, which churches know is good for business.

If, for the sake of argument, we (modern, rational people) accept the assumption that our behavior can offend God, surely this God didn’t need Jesus’ death to forgive. He could be benevolent and simply say
“you’re genuinely sorry, so I forgive you.” Paul, however, didn’t believe in a benevolent God, but thought of him as a rigid character who demanded a sacrifice.

I think Paul misunderstood the real problem with sin. The true sting of sin is that it harms our fellow humans, or sometimes the perpetrator himself. It should be the victim who does the forgiving, because he’s vindicated, maybe compensated, and the guilty party usually promises not to repeat the offense. Wrong-doers learn from their mistakes, and society benefits. Paul bypassed this reparative process by professing that sin was forgiven by having faith in Christ, an unrelated third party. In his scheme the perpetrator may not be genuinely repentant, the victim is uncompensated, so a repeat offense is very likely.

To pass on the responsibility of dealing with sin by having faith in Jesus is, in fact, a badly deficient way of dealing with problems. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA55jGyq2C8).

In turning Christ’s death into a sacrifice that saves souls, Paul sacrificed common sense. He promoted a belief that degrades interpersonal relationships and compromises social harmony.

Christians who teach this nonsense to innocent children are not only credulous, but morally wrong.
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03-04-2014, 06:52 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2014 06:55 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(03-04-2014 09:34 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(02-04-2014 07:46 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Special Pleading is Special. C'mon, KC, you're a helluva lot smarter than that. Really.

Saying "I don't know" isn't special pleading. It's simply saying "I don't have the answer to that question".

You're right -- my mistake, I don't know what got into me. What I meant to say was Question-Begging is Begging the Question.





(03-04-2014 10:19 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(03-04-2014 10:12 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I don't know how to respond to this.

It reminds me of when laymen poo-poo a theory not knowing the scientific implications of how a collective of facts constitutes a Theory. There is the common usage and the professional usage and meaning.

Still, the word depraved has such negative connotations that I cannot help but be disgusted by its usage to describe us.

Yeah, I know. And, that was my mistake.

But, please don't think that I believe all humans are morally corrupt. That's not what I meant at all.

That's what "depraved" means. Equivocation is equivocating.

You're getting into "Pissing Down My Back And Telling Me It's Raining" territory here.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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03-04-2014, 09:08 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2014 10:31 PM by freetoreason.)
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
Calvin on depravity, concupiscence is single-minded desire for 'fleshly appetites', especially lust:
'...our nature is not only destitute of all good, but is so fertile in all evils that it cannot remain inactive. Those who have called it concupiscence have used an expression not improper, if it were only added, which is far from being conceded by most persons, that everything in man, the understanding and will, the soul and body, is polluted and engrossed by this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that man is of himself nothing else but concupiscence.' (Institutes, Vol. I, Bk. II, Chap. 1, Para. 8; Allen translation.)

Canons of Dort of the churches of the Protestant reformation, on man's nature:
'but revolting from God by the instigation of the devil, and abusing the freedom of his own will, he forfeited these excellent gifts; and on the contrary entailed on himself blindness of mind, horrible darkness, vanity and perverseness of judgment, became wicked, rebellious, and obdurate in heart and will, and impure in his affections.'

Don't let anyone try to mitigate the message of the total depravity doctrine. It's a wicked teaching. We used to recite this crap in church, along with our children. Again, happy clappy evangelicals know nothing of the historical doctrines.
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03-04-2014, 11:44 PM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
(03-04-2014 09:08 PM)freetoreason Wrote:  Calvin on depravity, concupiscence is single-minded desire for 'fleshly appetites', especially lust:
'...our nature is not only destitute of all good, but is so fertile in all evils that it cannot remain inactive. Those who have called it concupiscence have used an expression not improper, if it were only added, which is far from being conceded by most persons, that everything in man, the understanding and will, the soul and body, is polluted and engrossed by this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that man is of himself nothing else but concupiscence.' (Institutes, Vol. I, Bk. II, Chap. 1, Para. 8; Allen translation.)

Canons of Dort of the churches of the Protestant reformation, on man's nature:
'but revolting from God by the instigation of the devil, and abusing the freedom of his own will, he forfeited these excellent gifts; and on the contrary entailed on himself blindness of mind, horrible darkness, vanity and perverseness of judgment, became wicked, rebellious, and obdurate in heart and will, and impure in his affections.'

Don't let anyone try to mitigate the message of the total depravity doctrine. It's a wicked teaching. We used to recite this crap in church, along with our children. Again, happy clappy evangelicals know nothing of the historical doctrines.

KC, Bro, PLEASE open your eyes!

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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04-04-2014, 04:02 AM
RE: Easter is coming, I want to understand this Jesus story
But, but Proplayer44 I don't want to play the Theist. I flunked costume design 101 in college. Weeping

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles
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