Eco-Extremism
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27-11-2010, 11:52 AM
Eco-Extremism
I was watching "Democracy Now" and noticed an interview with Derrick Jensen.I looked up the guy's views and respected his idea of changing or abandoning the "industrial world" , so to put it.
Red light started blinking when the idea of non-violent protest was seen as counter productive.
I support the idea of change for a better more eco friendly world.It just scares me to see extremists who want to make it into a dogma.It's a reason based position , not a belief !!!
I draw a parallel to atheism , because atheists don't resort to violence , they just talk and educate people and it has so far worked.Gay people hold parades and don't use violence - and they are at risk of being killed any day by a bigot.

What do you think of the environmental movement in the context of peaceful action ? (also keep in mind the parallel of atheist protest)

//I apologize if this thread is in the wrong place Moderators - feel free to //move it.
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27-11-2010, 12:25 PM
RE: Eco-Extremism
Personally, I don't think the solution to improving the ecology is protesting at all, violent or otherwise. I think educating people about personal responsibility is far more effective. Teaching people that they can impact our issues on a personal level will make a way bigger difference. I am definitely against violent protest, it's just that the solution, in my view, to the damage we are doing to the earth must involve as much action as awareness. I find it hard to draw a paralllel with atheism. I feel that atheism is about knowledge, while environmental issues have more to do with changing the things we do.

As far as the "eco-nuts" go, I think they do more harm than good. When they influence people who are not willing to go to the extremes, it gives the impression that it's all or nothing. That's just a bad impression to give people. Instead, teach them that even the little things (plant a small garden, landscape with trees in your yard, buy locally) make a massive impact. If more people start doing these small things, industry MUST follow suit. If I buy my clothes from a small company that purchases locally produced wool, and makes the clothes here, that's one less article of clothing that gets shipped from overseas, leaving a huge carbon footprint. So I AM affecting the large scale things like industry, without going out and bitching at the overseas manufacturer for destroying the planet. It's all retroactive. You don't need to be an extremist to make an extreme impact.

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27-11-2010, 12:28 PM
RE: Eco-Extremism
Quote:I looked up the guy's views and respected his idea of changing or abandoning the "industrial world" , so to put it.

The irony of people making statements like this on the internet never stops being amusing to me. I'm all for a more eco friendly world but turning back the clock on our current industrial world is not realistic. We're not going from our current standard of living to live in caves and burn wood for our sole source of heat and cooking. We're not giving up cars and energy and all going to forage for food in the wilderness and wear bear skins. And, using a computer and the internet to complain about the current state of the world is almost too funny to comment on.

Quote:I draw a parallel to atheism , because atheists don't resort to violence , they just talk and educate people and it has so far worked.Gay people hold parades and don't use violence - and they are at risk of being killed any day by a bigot.

Lots of assumptions and stereotypes in this statement. No atheist resorts to violence? Being a pacifist is not in any way a prerequisite to being an atheist. And, the point about being jailed may be true in some 3rd world countries but it's not the norm.

Quote:What do you think of the environmental movement in the context of peaceful action ?

I'm all for it but it's going to take a willingness of a lot of people to push a change for anything real to happen. And, trade offs have to be made. For example, the green movement is going to have to get over its opposition to nuclear energy if they want to stop the burning of fossil fuels. Personally, I can't believe we are not building nukes right now in the US to reduce our dependence on oil. New energy sources isn't just an environmental issue, it's a national security issue too.

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27-11-2010, 02:17 PM
RE: Eco-Extremism
Educating the people at the top positions is the strongest and fastest way to engineer change for the good. Unfortunately, most people at the top think they know everything and are unwilling to learn. Replacing people at the top with intelligent, well educated people is not all that easy, (see politics in Texas). Protest is a resort that sometimes is the only way left. Peaceful protest sometimes accomplishes a lot, (see India's seperation from Britain and Black rights in America). Violent protest is a last resort when all else fails, and it is often counter-productive(ie. the damage it does often outweighs the good it does, if it does any good at all. Many times it doesn't produce any good. Occassionally it does, but at what cost?). If the situation gets to this point there are huge issues to be resolved on many levels.
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27-11-2010, 03:27 PM
RE: Eco-Extremism
But are they really eco-nuts, or just hippies? Are they demanding something concrete from some organisation/person/institution or are they just hugging trees, playing (plastic!) drums and making love to the planet?
The planet doesn't give a hot fudge about us, but I hope we do give alot of hot fudge about ourselves.

And the earlier posts tell everything else I'd have to say. Except for: Make less kids and decrease the population growth.

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27-11-2010, 05:12 PM
RE: Eco-Extremism
(27-11-2010 03:27 PM)Kikko Wrote:  Make less kids and decrease the population growth.

Yes, yes, yes, oh and YES!

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27-11-2010, 10:35 PM
RE: Eco-Extremism
Quote:But are they really eco-nuts, or just hippies?

This reminded me of something. When I was in college in the late 1980s, there was a group that traveled around arguing for the legalization of hemp (the plant from which marijuana is derived). Their argument was mostly focused on the industrial uses of hemp and how much more environmentally and economically friendly it was, and a small portion of their argument was on the potential medicinal value of the drug (which was known back then but not as widely accepted). It all sounded really good and was a well put together presentation.

But, 20 years later, what I remember most about it was that the people who were advocating for the legalizing of hemp looked EXACTLY what you would expect people who would want pot legalized to look like. I remember walking away thinking "if you guys had on shirts and ties instead of looking like you just came back from following the Dead for 6 months, you'd have a lot more credibility". I think that is probably in play with a lot of the environmental movement too. They just look like what you expect enviros to look like, and I have to think that does not help their credibility at all.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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28-11-2010, 07:50 AM
RE: Eco-Extremism
I apologize if I used stereotypes.
My main concern was the idea that non-violent protests take options away.
I believe the website was endciv.com - see for yourselves.
Also of concern was the fact that some brought environmental issues which are based on facts, to a position of dogma. I do remember seeing some atheists call in on various atheist themed shows and saying that atheists should form a religion on the dogma that there is no god.
I for one , became an atheist because of reason and logic , not to spite religion or to have a new trendy "faith".
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