Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
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12-04-2012, 08:25 PM
Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
Was there REALLY a jesus?
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12-04-2012, 08:26 PM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(12-04-2012 08:25 PM)Daftheed Wrote:  Was there REALLY a jesus?

Most likely yes.

However it is pretty unlikely he was the Son of God and debatable he even claimed to be.

If this topic interests you I'd recommend speaking to Mark Fulton, he's just written a book about Jesus and the beginnings of Christianity.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
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Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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12-04-2012, 08:46 PM (This post was last modified: 12-04-2012 08:52 PM by itsacow.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(12-04-2012 08:25 PM)Daftheed Wrote:  Was there REALLY a jesus?
There was.

He was born in 4 B.C, as their is no year 0. He lived in Caesaria as a carpenter at the port. He probably spoke at least 3 languages. Latin for dealing with the romans, Aramaic for everyday life, and Hebrew for religious matters as he was Jewish. There is very little knowledge on what he did between this time and sometime before his crucifixion.

It is believed that Jesus was crucified because his followers were calling him "King of the Jews". Jesus never claimed to be the king, but his followers kept calling him that. The Roman authorities did not like this because the Emperor, or Caesar, was also worshiped as a sort of demigod. So the Romans arrested him and turned him over to the Sanhedrin, a council of Jewish elders who held up Hebrew law. The Sanhedrin could not decide what to do because many of his followers were Jewish, and that would not have been good for P.R. So they handed him back over to the romans and Pontius Pilate the roman governor of Judea at the time. Pontius decided to have him crucified, and that was that.

The reason why we know this is because a is because a Jewish scholar by the name of Josephus ben Matthias asked people in the area of person called Jesus later in his works. He asked locals of him and by most accounts, their ancestors has known a person who was called King of the Jews.

This may not be entirely accurate because I learned this about 3-4 months ago.

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12-04-2012, 09:05 PM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
Part man - part myth.
Crazy Rabbi who hated the Romans and any Jew who worked with them.
Started a bunch of trouble and was killed by the Romans with the Jewish religious leadership in agreement.
Not the son of god, not even a bastard step child of god.
More like a bastard son of a Roman soldier.
All of the "Jesus quotes" are most likely made up over the centuries.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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13-04-2012, 01:08 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(12-04-2012 08:25 PM)Daftheed Wrote:  Was there REALLY a jesus?

Beyond biblical works, there is very little evidence of the man.

I assume that he did exist, though.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

- Joel Chastnoff, The 188th Crybaby Brigade
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13-04-2012, 01:15 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
Nope. No such person ever existed.

"The problem for this notion is that absolutely nothing at all corroborates the sacred biography and yet this 'greatest story' is peppered with numerous anachronisms, contradictions and absurdities. For example, at the time that Joseph and the pregnant Mary are said to have gone off to Bethlehem for a supposed Roman census, Galilee (unlike Judaea) was not a Roman province and therefore ma and pa would have had no reason to make the journey. Even if Galilee had been imperial territory, history knows of no ‘universal census’ ordered by Augustus (nor any other emperor) – and Roman taxes were based on property ownership not on a head count. Then again, we now know that Nazareth did not exist before the second century.

It is mentioned not at all in the Old Testament nor by Josephus, who waged war across the length and breadth of Galilee (a territory about the size of Greater London) and yet Josephus records the names of dozens of other towns. In fact most of the ‘Jesus-action’ takes place in towns of equally doubtful provenance, in hamlets so small only partisan Christians know of their existence (yet well attested pagan cities, with extant ruins, failed to make the Jesus itinerary).

What should alert us to wholesale fakery here is that practically all the events of Jesus’s supposed life appear in the lives of mythical figures of far more ancient origin. Whether we speak of miraculous birth, prodigious youth, miracles or wondrous healings – all such 'signs' had been ascribed to other gods, centuries before any Jewish holy man strolled about. Jesus’s supposed utterances and wisdom statements are equally common place, being variously drawn from Jewish scripture, neo-Platonic philosophy or commentaries made by Stoic and Cynic sages."


--from this extremely in-depth and informative site: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/ , specifically THIS page.

Beware. There lies more research than you can handle, haha.
You can lose weeks of your life lost in that site.
Fascinating. Thumbsup

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13-04-2012, 01:31 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
Okay, if we put the idea of divinity apart, yes, Jesus does exist. he is free-thinker that roams.
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13-04-2012, 01:36 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(12-04-2012 08:46 PM)itsacow Wrote:  
(12-04-2012 08:25 PM)Daftheed Wrote:  Was there REALLY a jesus?
It is believed that Jesus was crucified because his followers were calling him "King of the Jews". Jesus never claimed to be the king, but his followers kept calling him that. The Roman authorities did not like this because the Emperor, or Caesar, was also worshiped as a sort of demigod. So the Romans arrested him and turned him over to the Sanhedrin, a council of Jewish elders who held up Hebrew law. The Sanhedrin could not decide what to do because many of his followers were Jewish, and that would not have been good for P.R. So they handed him back over to the romans and Pontius Pilate the roman governor of Judea at the time. Pontius decided to have him crucified, and that was that.

The exact reasons Jesus of Nazereth was executed are a bit of a mystery. Claiming to be a king or a god was not a capital offense at that time under Roman law. According to Josephus and Seneca, Jesus was put to death for sedition, which might match the biblical account of the passion. The Jewish Sanhedrin definitely wanted Jesus dead as he represented a revolutionary and a threat to their power base among Judeans. Also claiming to be The Son of God was a blasphemous act in their eyes, which would have made him eligible for temple justice ie being stoned to death, as the the Romans allowed the Sanhedrin to handle internal religious affairs that way. Now it's possible that Ciaphais appealed to Pilate for the Romans to kill Jesus out of fear that doing it themselves might create a riot among the Jews and the Sahedrin would be held responsible by the Romans for the mayhem. Pilate had his own problems to contend with. He was on the shit list of a regional Roman governor named Felix in what is modern day Syria for inciting several bloody insurrections among the Jews by his dictates. Pilate was a brutal man, ruling with an iron fist, and was responsible for crucifying thousands of local Jews and the populous he ruled hated him. Felix felt that he caused more problems than he solved and his patience with Pilate was wearing thin. I personally believe that Jesus was, in the end, crucified under a conjured charge of sedition to keep Ciaphais, Herod, and the other Roman puppets content while keeping the public under control as well.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

- Joel Chastnoff, The 188th Crybaby Brigade
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13-04-2012, 01:50 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(12-04-2012 08:46 PM)itsacow Wrote:  There was.

...The reason why we know this is because a is because a Jewish scholar by the name of Josephus ben Matthias asked people in the area of person called Jesus later in his works. He asked locals of him and by most accounts, their ancestors has known a person who was called King of the Jews.


This is rather long but absolutely amazing stuff, from HERE :

Josephus (aka Joseph ben Matthias) (c37-100 AD)


Flavius Josephus is a highly respected and much-quoted Romano-Jewish historian. The early Christians were zealous readers of his work.

A native of Judea, living in the 1st century AD, Josephus was actually governor of Galilee for a time (prior to the war of 70 AD) – the very province in which Jesus allegedly did his wonders. Though not born until 37 AD and therefore not a contemporary witness to any Jesus-character, Josephus at one point even lived in Cana, the very city in which Christ is said to have wrought his first miracle.

Josephus's two major tomes are History of The Jewish War and The Antiquities of the Jews. In these complementary works, the former written in the 70s, the latter in the 90s AD, Josephus mentions every noted personage of Palestine and describes every important event which occurred there during the first seventy years of the Christian era.

At face value, Josephus appears to be the answer to the Christian apologist's dreams.

In a single paragraph (the so-called Testimonium Flavianum) Josephus confirms every salient aspect of the Christ-myth:

1. Jesus's existence 2. his 'more than human' status 3. his miracle working 4. his teaching 5. his ministry among the Jews and the Gentiles 6. his Messiahship 7. his condemnation by the Jewish priests 8. his sentence by Pilate 9. his death on the cross 10. the devotion of his followers 11. his resurrection on the 3rd day 12. his post-death appearance 13. his fulfillment of divine prophecy 14. the successful continuance of the Christians.

In just 127 words Josephus confirms everything – now that is a miracle!


BUT WAIT A MINUTE ...

Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, Arnobius, etc. – in all their defences against pagan hostility, makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words.

The third century Church 'Father' Origen, for example, spent half his life and a quarter of a million words contending against the pagan writer Celsus. Origen drew on all sorts of proofs and witnesses to his arguments in his fierce defence of Christianity. He quotes from Josephus extensively. Yet even he makes no reference to this 'golden paragraph' from Josephus, which would have been the ultimate rebuttal. In fact, Origen actually said that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ."

Origen did not quote the 'golden paragraph' because this paragraph had not yet been written.

It was absent from early copies of the works of Josephus and did not appear in Origen's third century version of Josephus, referenced in his Contra Celsum.

Josephus knows nothing of Christians

It was around the year 53 AD that Josephus decided to investigate the sects among the Jews. According to the gospel fable this was the period of explosive growth for the Christian faith: "the churches ... throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria ... were edified... and ... were multiplied." – Acts 9:31.

This is also the time of the so-called "Council of Jerusalem" when supposedly Paul regaled the brothers with tales of "miracles and wonders" among the gentiles (Acts 15.12).

And yet Josephus knows nothing of all this:

"When I was sixteen years old, I decided to get experience with the various sects that are among us. These are three: as we have said many times, the first, that of the Pharisees, the second that of the Saduccees, the third, that of the Essenes. For I thought that in this way I would choose best, if I carefully examined them all. Therefore, submitting myself to strict training, I passed through the three groups." – Life, 2.

Josephus elsewhere does record a "fourth sect of Jewish philosophy" and reports that it was a "mad distemper" agitating the entire country. But it has nothing to do with Christianity and its superstar:

"But of the fourth sect of Jewish philosophy, Judas the Galilean was the author. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord.

They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man Lord ...

And it was in Gessius Florus's time that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and to make them revolt from the Romans. And these are the sects of Jewish philosophy."
– Antiquities 18.23.

Nothing could better illustrate the bogus nature of the Testimonium than the remaining corpus of Josephus's work.


Consider, also, the anomalies:

1. How could Josephus claim that Jesus had been the answer to his messianic hopes yet remain an orthodox Jew?
The absurdity forces some apologists to make the ridiculous claim that Josephus was a closet Christian!

2. If Josephus really thought Jesus had been 'the Christ' surely he would have added more about him than one paragraph, a casual aside in someone else's (Pilate's) story?

In fact, Josephus relates much more about John the Baptist than about Jesus! He also reports in great detail the antics of other self-proclaimed messiahs, including Judas of Galilee, Theudas the Magician, and the unnamed 'Egyptian Jew' messiah.

It is striking that though Josephus confirms everything the Christians could wish for, he adds nothing that is not in the gospel narratives, nothing that would have been unknown by Christians already.


3. The question of context.

Antiquities 18 is primarily concerned with "all sorts of misfortunes" which befell the Jews during a period of thirty-two years (4-36 AD).

Josephus begins with the unpopular taxation introduced by the Roman Governor Cyrenius in 6 AD. He presents a synopsis of the three established Jewish parties (Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes), but his real quarry is the "fourth sect of philosophy ... which laid the foundation of our future miseries." That was the sect of Judas the Galilean, "which before we were unacquainted withal."

At the very point we might expect a mention of "Christians" (if any such sect existed) we have instead castigation of tax rebels!

"It was in Gessius Florus's time [64-66] that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and made them revolt from the Romans; and these are the sects of Jewish philosophy."


"Nor can fear of death make them call any man Lord." Sound a tad familiar?

Chapter 2 notes the cities built to honour the Romans; the frequent changes in high priest (up to Caiaphas) and Roman procurators (up to Pontius Pilate); and also the turmoil in Parthia.

Chapter 3, containing the Testimonium as paragraph three, is essentially about Pilate's attempts to bring Jerusalem into the Roman system. With his first policy – placing Caesar's ensigns in Jerusalem – Pilate was forced to back down by unexpected Jewish protests in Caesarea. With his second policy – providing Jerusalem with a new aqueduct built with funds sequestered from the Temple, Pilate made ready for Jewish protests. Concealed weapons on his soldiers caused much bloodshed.

At this point the paragraph about Jesus is introduced!

Immediately after, Josephus continues:

"And about the same time another terrible misfortune confounded the Jews ..."


There is no way that Josephus, who remained an orthodox Jew all his life and defended Judaism vociferously against Greek critics, would have thought that the execution of a messianic claimant was "another terrible misfortune" for the Jews. This is the hand of a Christian writer who himself considered the death of Jesus to be a Jewish tragedy (fitting in with his own notions of a stiff-necked race, rejected by God because they themselves had rejected the Son of God).

With paragraph 3 removed from the text the chapter, in fact, reads better. The "aqueduct massacre" now justifies "another terrible misfortune."


4. The final assertion, that the Christians were "not extinct at this day," confirms that the so-called Testimonium is a later interpolation. How much later we cannot say but there was no "tribe of Christians" during Josephus' lifetime. Christianity under that moniker did not establish itself until the 2nd century. Outside of this single bogus paragraph, in all the extensive histories of Josephus there is not a single reference to Christianity anywhere.


5. The hyperbolic language is uncharacteristic of the historian:

"... as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him."

This is the stuff of Christian propaganda.


REALITY CHECK

In fact, the Josephus paragraph about Jesus does not appear until the beginning of the fourth century, at the time of Constantine.

Bishop Eusebius, that great Church propagandist and self-confessed liar-for-god, was the first person known to have quoted this paragraph of Josephus, about the year 340 AD. This was after the Christians had become the custodians of religious correctness.

Whole libraries of antiquity were torched by the Christians. Yet unlike the works of his Jewish contemporaries, the histories of Josephus survived. They survived because the Christian censors had a use for them. They planted evidence on Josephus, turning the leading Jewish historian of his day into a witness for Jesus Christ! Finding no references to Jesus anywhere in Josephus's genuine work, they interpolated a brief but all-embracing reference based purely on Christian belief.

Do we need to look any further to identify Eusebius himself as the forger?

Sanctioned by the imperial propagandist every Christian commentator for the next thirteen centuries accepted unquestioningly the entire Testimonium Flavianum, along with its declaration that Jesus “was the Messiah.”

And even in the twenty-first century, scholars who should know better trot out a truncated version of the 'golden paragraph' in a scurrilous attempt to keep Josephus 'on message.'


The "Arabic Josephus"

In a novel embellishment to the notion of an orthodox Jew giving testimony of Jesus, defenders of the faith have in recent times tossed an Arabic version of the Josephus text on to their pile of dubious evidence. The Arabic recension was brought to light in 1971 by Professor Schlomo Pines of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. Pines himself remained cautious about claims of untampered authenticity but the brethren have no such reservations, such is their desperation to keep Josephus in the witness stand for Jesus.

The work in question is actually a history of the world to the year 941/942 penned by a Christian Arab bishop, Agapius of Hierapolis. His World History preserves, in Arabic translation, a version of the Testimonium minus the most obvious Christian interpolations.

But what does a 10th century copy actually prove?

Claims that the Arabic passage itself dates from the 4th century are untenable (written Arabic barely existed at such an early date). Moreover Agapius was a Melkite Christian (pro-Byzantium) at a time of intensifying Islamization of his native Syria. What he wrote was political correctness for his own times. A new Shia Hamdani dynasty had been established barely 50 miles away in Aleppo. Its first prince, Sayf ad Dawlah ("sword of the state"), began a century of persistent attacks against Byzantium. Agapius' paraphrase of a Syriac rendition of Josephus from a Greek original rather significantly mentions JC's "condemnation to die" but not the actuality of it and of JC being "alive" 3 days later – in other words, a carefully balanced compatibility with Muhammad's view of a Jesus as a prophet who did not die on the cross.

In short, the Arabic Josephus is no evidence of the Christian godman and serves only to confuse the unwary.


Justus of Tiberias

Justus was also an historian, a rival to Josephus, and from the same region. Perhaps his work was not as easily doctored – his histories did not make it through the Christian Dark Age and are – as they say – "lost to us"!

"I have read the chronology of Justus of Tiberias ... and being under the Jewish prejudices, as indeed he was himself also a Jew by birth, he makes not one mention of Jesus, of what happened to him, or of the wonderful works that he did."

– Photius, Patriarch of Constantinople, 9th Century


Christian apologists, for their own convenience, blur the distinction between evidence of Jesus and evidence of Christians.

It is rather as if a child who believed in the Tooth Fairy was to be presented as evidence that the Tooth Fairy really existed.

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13-04-2012, 02:10 AM
 
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
None of this matters. I wrote a response to this on my website (Horus and Jesus). Too much time has passed and there are many good reasons for fraud to have occurred as well as book burnings by those who never wanted anyone to know about Jesus Christ. There are too many conflicting interests.

What does matter is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is the concepts in there that save us. This is the Jesus we know; the only one we can know. It doesn't matter what Josephus said or didn't say, we know the Jesus of the Gospels, and we all have a copy of those.

What should be discussed is what is Jesus Christ. What does it mean to be born again and be one with Christ?

Reality can be greatly overrated at times. We all exist as a thought in the mind of God, so the "reality" of Jesus is, for us, at this point in time, a thought in our heads. We read the Gospel, and we come to know Jesus Christ. That's all there really is to it.
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