Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
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22-04-2012, 10:27 AM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2012 12:50 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(22-04-2012 09:43 AM)Blood Wrote:  I think there had been a growing interest and desire for monotheism for a long time, and Judaism was the main and oldest known religion that preached monotheism.

Can't argue with your development of Christianity part, but the Jews were NOT monotheistic, at least up to and probably after the Babylonian exile, and maybe well after. The "Covenant" was not that they "believed" in one god, but that they would "worship" one god, (Yahweh- the "Lord of Hosts", or "god of the armies"), because he brought (they thought), Israel victory in battle. He had a wife, (Ashura), and the history of Israel is relplete with their "falling away" and worshiping the gods of their neighbors. The original idea of monotheism was Egyptian, (the Aten, or "sun god" ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten ), WAY before Second Isaiah insisted they worship only one god in Israel, and had the "scriptures" re-written, yet again, to reflect that. Granted the Egyptian "attempt" ended in failure,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg

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22-04-2012, 03:07 PM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(22-04-2012 10:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(22-04-2012 09:43 AM)Blood Wrote:  I think there had been a growing interest and desire for monotheism for a long time, and Judaism was the main and oldest known religion that preached monotheism.

Can't argue with your development of Christianity part, but the Jews were NOT monotheistic, at least up to and probably after the Babylonian exile, and maybe well after. The "Covenant" was not that they "believed" in one god, but that they would "worship" one god, (Yahweh- the "Lord of Hosts", or "god of the armies"), because he brought (they thought), Israel victory in battle. He had a wife, (Ashura), and the history of Israel is relplete with their "falling away" and worshiping the gods of their neighbors. The original idea of monotheism was Egyptian, (the Aten, or "sun god" ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten ), WAY before Second Isaiah insisted they worship only one god in Israel, and had the "scriptures" re-written, yet again, to reflect that. Granted the Egyptian "attempt" ended in failure,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg
We've already discussed this several pages ago.
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22-04-2012, 03:58 PM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2012 04:57 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
I agree with Blood about the emergence of Christianity.

Here is how Paul did it...

Paul was a salesman with an ambitious agenda. He had a vision to expand his particular interpretation of Judaism into the gentile world, and he was convinced he knew how to do it. He had a cunning plan to undermine all those dangerous Nazarene beliefs that incited rebellion against Roman rule and, what’s more, required obedience to cumbersome dictates.


He wrote to various groups scattered throughout the Empire, and desperately insisted they all believe only his theology. In Romans 15:16, he wrote that he thought of Gentiles as an offering he would bring to God. He was so obsessed with snaring converts that little else in his life mattered. Most of the people he wrote to were Gentiles (pagans) who were associated with Jewish synagogues, (“God-fearing Gentiles”), although he did
write to Jews too. From Paul’s perspective, his patrons were in desperate need of direction and an authoritative, charismatic leader to look up to. He considered himself just the man. He knew how to win the hearts, minds, and souls of pagans because he thought he was one of the few god fearers who
understood Gentile cultures.


Paul’s theology had a long and carefully thought out gestation. He was a salesman who knew his customers. His market was mainly, but not exclusively, gentile. He knew he needed a good product, something very
different to traditional Judaism. The Jews believed one had to be circumcised, a painful and embarrassing procedure, not easy to sell to an adult man. One was required to believe in a xenophobic Yahweh, a rather thunderous and reputedly violent pro-Jewish anti-gentile God. One could only eat kosher food, marry
someone Jewish, and had to stop all work on the Sabbath. Jewish heritage and history were to be regarded as superior to all others, and one was required to take part in the fasts and feasts celebrating the ancient epic of Israel. One was expected to believe Jews were destined to one day be the masters of the world. Paul knew that gentiles found all this inconvenient, irksome and out of touch with reality, so he labeled these rules and beliefs as a type of slavery. He knew he had to jettison them, so he did.


All of a sudden, according to Paul, there was no need for circumcision and no need to stop work on the Sabbath or to obey the dietary kosher rules. He downplayed the importance of the Jewish Temple. He ignored the idea of a political messiah of Israel and replaced him with Christ, the savior of all humankind. The “kingdom of God” became a place in heaven, not one in Israel. He claimed Yahweh was such a decent chap he had sent his own precious son to earth. He affirmed gentiles should be considered descendants of Abraham too. He called the centuries-old Jewish Law a “curse.” He said all that was now required was faith in his story about Christ. Voilà! The Christ myth and Christian theology were born.


Paul was one of history’s first examples of a power-hungry cult leader who, when the rules of the established religion were no longer convenient, simply invented new ones to suit himself. The so-called “old covenant” of the Jews was replaced by Paul’s imaginary “new covenant.” He was trying to reinvent Judaism and dampen down Jewish messianic dreams.
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22-04-2012, 04:08 PM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(22-04-2012 03:07 PM)Blood Wrote:  We have already discussed this several pages ago.


No we haven't. Did we talk about it on another thread ?

Actually neither cultures were "montheistic". Both practiced a "utilitarian monolaterism", based on which, among the many gods, was most useful, to themselves, if they worshiped them. The Egyptias thought the Aten was "chief among many", and the reason the Hebrews settled on Yahweh Sabaoth, was because he was the "god of the armies", (the Lord of Hosts), and he was, among the many gods, the one most likely to provide the most help in their battles, if they worshiped him.

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23-04-2012, 01:15 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(21-04-2012 01:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(21-04-2012 12:40 PM)Antirepublican Wrote:  My point is, Jesus, the guy whose story didn't show up until like 150AD

So do I think Jesus was a real dude? Nope. I do not.

This x 100....

I mentioned this before, but apparently they simply ignored it and continue on with their Jesus rant.

There is no absolutely no mention of this guy when he was a live.
No one that actually met jesus even wrote anything about him.
A lot of the historical events that supposedly happened during this time have been proven to be false.
His story was merely copied from other stories.
His existence is not important at all. The myths could still easily be passed on without the actual human ever existing.


If you are still delusional and think Jesus the person existed, fine we can't disprove that just as we can't disprove god. However, the character from the bible obviously did not exist. Even if you want to claim the human existed you cannot use A SINGLE CHARACTERISTIC of the biblical Jesus in regards to said human with the slightest degree of certainty.


Great.
Your stating your OPINION does not end a discussion.
And it is flawed. I don''t care what you think. You have provided not one documented piece of data to back up anything you have said.

1. The fact that no one "mentions" him during his lifetime is irrelevant. Exactly who, and where would YOU look for that to happen ? He WAS mentioned, starting about 70 CE, (NOT 150 AD). How, and why did you come to the conclusion it was 150 CE. ? That's NOT how History is studied, nor is it the criteria, historians use to determine something, (being "mentioned during their lifetime").

2. If the people who knew him were not writers, why would anyone "write" anything ? Again, your criteria are irrelevant, and frankly stupid.

3. Other things being proven false are irrelevant.

4. If the things that were written about him were from "other sources" (which they may have been), YOU have not said what those sources were. Why could the "other sources" be correct ? What are the "other sources" ?

5. His "existence" is not unimportant. The History of Western Civizilization is all about him.

6. The analogy to the "god disproval" is false, for obvious reasons.

7. So, for example, why should the Tacitus statement be discounted, tell us exactly ?

At any given time, those of us who have come to our positions are the minority here. Most of the time, most of the people viewing this blog are "guests", thanks to the great marketing of this blog by it's founders. Who knows why they are here, or what they are looking for ? A thread, "Was there a Jesus" is going to grab their attention. If some want to discuss the evidence for the historical Jesus, (which apparently you can't/won't), tough shit.
In my experience and opinion, human kind tends to be pretty keen on documenting everything. Now what you are saying is that for 70 years or so not one person thought to find some chap to write this down?
I mean this is the son of god we're talking about here, that would be a pretty important thing to document if you ask me.
But nothing was written, nothing. According to you it was just a giant 70year long game of Chinese whispers. Have you ever played Chinese whispers?
It would be like us just hearing about WW2 now. It doesn't make sense. I mean yes you are valid in saying that people around him couldn't write, but nobody could for 70years?
Do you see how far fetched this is? The son of god, on earth. That is kinda a big deal you don't keep hush hush about.

So what is more likely, that Jesus's tale was told in a giant game of Chinese whispers style and then some 70 or so years later someone thought it may be important to write it down.
OR
That someone hears these stories about Horrus and the others etc.., hears the same story about born to a virgin, star in the east, crucified, resurrected 3 days later, saw that it was a pretty nifty story and so decided to write it down just make up some characters. Afterall, it happened 70 or so years ago, seems pretty convenient that nobody who would have been in these locations would have still been alive if you ask me.

And putting all that aside, if somehow you can prove he was a real person that goes in absolutely no way to proving that he was truly some son of a god.

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23-04-2012, 02:21 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(23-04-2012 01:15 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(21-04-2012 01:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Great.
Your stating your OPINION does not end a discussion.
And it is flawed. I don''t care what you think. You have provided not one documented piece of data to back up anything you have said.

1. The fact that no one "mentions" him during his lifetime is irrelevant. Exactly who, and where would YOU look for that to happen ? He WAS mentioned, starting about 70 CE, (NOT 150 AD). How, and why did you come to the conclusion it was 150 CE. ? That's NOT how History is studied, nor is it the criteria, historians use to determine something, (being "mentioned during their lifetime").

2. If the people who knew him were not writers, why would anyone "write" anything ? Again, your criteria are irrelevant, and frankly stupid.

3. Other things being proven false are irrelevant.

4. If the things that were written about him were from "other sources" (which they may have been), YOU have not said what those sources were. Why could the "other sources" be correct ? What are the "other sources" ?

5. His "existence" is not unimportant. The History of Western Civizilization is all about him.

6. The analogy to the "god disproval" is false, for obvious reasons.

7. So, for example, why should the Tacitus statement be discounted, tell us exactly ?

At any given time, those of us who have come to our positions are the minority here. Most of the time, most of the people viewing this blog are "guests", thanks to the great marketing of this blog by it's founders. Who knows why they are here, or what they are looking for ? A thread, "Was there a Jesus" is going to grab their attention. If some want to discuss the evidence for the historical Jesus, (which apparently you can't/won't), tough shit.
In my experience and opinion, human kind tends to be pretty keen on documenting everything. Now what you are saying is that for 70 years or so not one person thought to find some chap to write this down?
I mean this is the son of god we're talking about here, that would be a pretty important thing to document if you ask me.
But nothing was written, nothing. According to you it was just a giant 70year long game of Chinese whispers. Have you ever played Chinese whispers?
It would be like us just hearing about WW2 now. It doesn't make sense. I mean yes you are valid in saying that people around him couldn't write, but nobody could for 70years?
Do you see how far fetched this is? The son of god, on earth. That is kinda a big deal you don't keep hush hush about.

So what is more likely, that Jesus's tale was told in a giant game of Chinese whispers style and then some 70 or so years later someone thought it may be important to write it down.
OR
That someone hears these stories about Horrus and the others etc.., hears the same story about born to a virgin, star in the east, crucified, resurrected 3 days later, saw that it was a pretty nifty story and so decided to write it down just make up some characters. Afterall, it happened 70 or so years ago, seems pretty convenient that nobody who would have been in these locations would have still been alive if you ask me.

And putting all that aside, if somehow you can prove he was a real person that goes in absolutely no way to proving that he was truly some son of a god.
Hi earmuff, I basically agree with you. It is bizarre that no contemporary historian writings about him have survived. It is obvious that the Jeebus story has borrowed ideas from other cults. And he wasn't the son of God. I still, however, think there may have been a figure the gospels were very loosely based on. Remember that Christians were damn good at destroying evidence that didn't fit their manufactured story. Note that James and John the baptist were recorded as genuine characters by non Christian historians. Note that there was a Jewish group called the Nazarenes whose numbers have been estimated at 8000 in the 60's who were led by James, probably Jesus' brother. They had their own gospel, which may have been incorporated into Matthew. They survived until about the 5th century, were not Christians, and their leaders were said to be related to Jeebus. Remember Paul wrote about Peter and James. Note too that no less a brain than Christopher Hitchens pointed out that if Jeebus was totally manufactured, the story would likely be that he grew up in Bethlehem, not Galilee.

Having said this, the Jeebus we know from the gospels is obviously (?about 90%) manufactured. And yes, I am just guessing that figure. And yes, I may be wrong, he may be 100% fictional.
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23-04-2012, 03:29 AM (This post was last modified: 23-04-2012 05:34 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
http://ia600309.us.archive.org/15/items/...e-life.mp3 (one of a series).

There were many sons of god. There is no "THE" son of god. It was a common title. There were many itinerant apocalypic preachers running around. He was one among many. Each of the elements of the mythological system which developed about him have specific, individual histories, and developmental contexts. It's not a simple matter. Why would anyone "write it down" ? If they did, where would they write it ? If someone did, where would that be available to be read ? Do you actually know "why" the gospels were written, and how they were used, when they actually were written ? BTW, you're wrong about the "70" number. It was 35 years between his exection, to the Q source, at the most, and oral tradtion was the common way they communicated. You need to look at other cultural contexts without your 2012 worldview, and 3rd Grade Sunday-school level of knowledge.

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23-04-2012, 07:01 PM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(23-04-2012 02:21 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Note that James and John the baptist were recorded as genuine characters by non Christian historians.
It's well documented that the author of Acts used Josephus as a source. Now I'm beginning to think that all of the NT writers used Jo. They lifted John the Baptist and James from him. Perhaps Jesus was lifted as well?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_ben_Ananias


Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!"
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23-04-2012, 08:22 PM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(23-04-2012 03:29 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  http://ia600309.us.archive.org/15/items/...e-life.mp3 (one of a series).

There were many sons of god. There is no "THE" son of god. It was a common title. There were many itinerant apocalypic preachers running around. He was one among many. Each of the elements of the mythological system which developed about him have specific, individual histories, and developmental contexts. It's not a simple matter. Why would anyone "write it down" ? If they did, where would they write it ? If someone did, where would that be available to be read ? Do you actually know "why" the gospels were written, and how they were used, when they actually were written ? BTW, you're wrong about the "70" number. It was 35 years between his exection, to the Q source, at the most, and oral tradtion was the common way they communicated. You need to look at other cultural contexts without your 2012 worldview, and 3rd Grade Sunday-school level of knowledge.
It is a simple matter. The fact is that this story/myth/legend was told time and time again. Right down to the exact details about virgin mother, star in the east, three dudes, 12 disciples, crucified and resurrected 3 days after death.
Green apple, red apple at the end of the day they're all apples.
The main point being that these things about Jesus are what is rammed down everybody's throats. These are suppose to be the proof more or less. BUT, these details happened a thousand times before to a thousand different people. Just substitute Egyptian god for Christian one (more or less). It truly is that simple. The myth about Jesus is just a retold myth taken from other cultures and religions.

Why would anyone write it down? Its Jesus. Its sorta a big deal. If somebody could write it down 35 or however many years later, they could write it down at any point between him being alive and that 35 years. But they didn't. Of all the things they wrote down during Jesus being alive and that 35years, I can not fathom how Jesus is not one of them. All it would take is a small note craved into a school desk ya know, "Jesus was here 5AD" (simplified of course). But nothing, nadda, zero. Yes I understand word of mouth was the craze of the time, BUT ITS JESUS. You make an exception for the biggest thing in the biggest thing in your life.
The gospels were written by the apostles because they wanted to preserve the memory/story of Jesus.
So why wait 35years?? Remember what I said before, Chinese whispers. Even if he was real, what parts were really real? Myth has a tendency to creep into these things, make the story sound bigger and better then what it was. "he was 5" tall, no no!, 20" tall!!!!".
And some people believe the gospels to be written by the disciples of Jesus himself, which if true, why not do it when he's alive!!!??? or at least when he died, not some 35years later.

Religion was power back then so if you have this story like Jesus then you're gonna get a bit of attention. And the story had been proven to be well received by the public just looking at past cultures and religions with the exact same story.

You know what the gospels about Jesus are? Plagiarism.

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23-04-2012, 08:52 PM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2012 04:24 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(23-04-2012 08:22 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  It is a simple matter. The fact is that this story/myth/legend was told time and time again. Right down to the exact details about virgin mother, star in the east, three dudes, 12 disciples, crucified and resurrected 3 days after death.
Green apple, red apple at the end of the day they're all apples.
The main point being that these things about Jesus are what is rammed down everybody's throats. These are suppose to be the proof more or less. BUT, these details happened a thousand times before to a thousand different people. Just substitute Egyptian god for Christian one (more or less). It truly is that simple. The myth about Jesus is just a retold myth taken from other cultures and religions.

Why would anyone write it down? Its Jesus. Its sorta a big deal. If somebody could write it down 35 or however many years later, they could write it down at any point between him being alive and that 35 years. But they didn't. Of all the things they wrote down during Jesus being alive and that 35years, I can not fathom how Jesus is not one of them. All it would take is a small note craved into a school desk ya know, "Jesus was here 5AD" (simplified of course). But nothing, nadda, zero. Yes I understand word of mouth was the craze of the time, BUT ITS JESUS. You make an exception for the biggest thing in the biggest thing in your life.
The gospels were written by the apostles because they wanted to preserve the memory/story of Jesus.
So why wait 35years?? Remember what I said before, Chinese whispers. Even if he was real, what parts were really real? Myth has a tendency to creep into these things, make the story sound bigger and better then what it was. "he was 5" tall, no no!, 20" tall!!!!".
And some people believe the gospels to be written by the disciples of Jesus himself, which if true, why not do it when he's alive!!!??? or at least when he died, not some 35years later.

Religion was power back then so if you have this story like Jesus then you're gonna get a bit of attention. And the story had been proven to be well received by the public just looking at past cultures and religions with the exact same story.

You know what the gospels about Jesus are? Plagiarism.


It's not a simple matter, because you say so. If you insist on a simpleton's view, that's your choice. As Mark has said, (detailed) deconstruction leads to the destruction of the myth. Chosing to ignore the complexities of the development process because you are too lazy to spend the time and energy to learn about it, is your problem. There are no "exact" details. Only a mush of appropriated myths, different in every text, pulled in, each for it's own reason. If you NEED simplicity, fine. That's all you get. The FACT is, there was a complex development process which is enlightening. So stay in your simple world. Everything will be all nice, and simple for ya. If you were a Jew in 70 AD, what exactly would you write it with, and on what ? A legal pad ? On your iPod ? On your dirt floor ? During your free time after work ? After the sheep were fed ? If it was taken from other cultures and myths, (which parts of it were), tell us EXACTLY which ones, why and when ? They wouldn't write about Jesus, if he WEREN'T a "big deal" until later ? You really think they had "school desks" in 35 AD ? He wasn't "the biggest thing" in their lives, until the myth had become full blown, if even then. You actually think the everyday person "wrote stuff" then ? You really need a course in Ancient History. If they were "plagiarized", please enlighten us. Name the sources. Who told you the gosples were "written to preserve his memory". In fact most scholars do not buy that. They were written as liturgical texts, for the purpose of worship. "Proclaiming" the gospel. Ever hear that ? The Christian sub-culture of Judaism had NO power. No historian would agree with that. The fact is, you have constructed a simplistic picture for yourself, that just doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. And the gospels, (the 4 in the present canon), were certainly NOT written by the "Apostles". Do you even know what the sources are ? The the gospels of Judas, Peter, James, Mary, The Letters of Paul and Tekla, .. they were all plagiarised too, Ok. So...they were plagiared...by the Apostles...to preserve his memory...alrighty then. The moon is made of green cheese, cuz I said so.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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