Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
13-04-2012, 02:53 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(13-04-2012 02:10 AM)Egor Wrote:  None of this matters. I wrote a response to this on my website (Horus and Jesus). Too much time has passed and there are many good reasons for fraud to have occurred as well as book burnings by those who never wanted anyone to know about Jesus Christ. There are too many conflicting interests.

What does matter is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is the concepts in there that save us. This is the Jesus we know; the only one we can know. It doesn't matter what Josephus said or didn't say, we know the Jesus of the Gospels, and we all have a copy of those.

What should be discussed is what is Jesus Christ. What does it mean to be born again and be one with Christ?

Reality can be greatly overrated at times. We all exist as a thought in the mind of God, so the "reality" of Jesus is, for us, at this point in time, a thought in our heads. We read the Gospel, and we come to know Jesus Christ. That's all there really is to it.
None of this matters? Seriously? Big Grin
I looked at your link. When a christian says "It doesn’t matter if Jesus existed or not." as you did on your site,
it warms my heart. You know it's all bullshit, but it's all you have, isn't it?
If that rant on your site is any indication, your "sanity walls" are dangerously close to crumbling.
You're like a coma patient who is starting to regain consciousness, the realization slowly setting in that the life
you've been living in your coma dream-world is a lie, and everything you thought was real... wasn't.
Go into the light, Egor. Reality is there waiting for you...

[Image: 0832984001338019225.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Quidsane's post
13-04-2012, 03:41 AM
 
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
I cannot believe you admire that jerk in your signature photo. Look how angry he is. Isn't that Pen or Teller, one of the two? It's like he's going to have a heart attack.
That being said: I've never cared whether or not Jesus existed in history. Never. It doesn't matter. I'm 2000 years down the road. I can't prove a thing. But I don't have to because I have the Gospels. Jesus is the concept of the Gospels. The two are one and the same. Either you embrace that concept and become that kind of spirit through re-birth, or you die.
For the record. I think Jesus did exist. I think it's lunacy to say otherwise. But it doesn't matter.
Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Egor's post
13-04-2012, 04:05 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
Egor, don't you get tired of making blind assertions? I'm just wondering, you seem to do it a lot.

Sapere aude! Have courage to use your own understanding!
Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way.


Enlightenment is liberating.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes ALovelyChickenMan's post
13-04-2012, 04:12 AM (This post was last modified: 13-04-2012 04:30 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(12-04-2012 09:05 PM)Thomas Wrote:  Part man - part myth.
Crazy Rabbi who hated the Romans and any Jew who worked with them.
Started a bunch of trouble and was killed by the Romans with the Jewish religious leadership in agreement.
Not the son of god, not even a bastard step child of god.
More like a bastard son of a Roman soldier.
All of the "Jesus quotes" are most likely made up over the centuries.


Mark Fulton and I have discussed this some. Mark may be more correct than I.

I think he undoubtedly existed, because his brothers, and followers fought over the meaning of his movement. Why would anyone publicly fight over a myth, if they were trying to forge a giant hoax. Yeshua bar Josef was a total nobody. There was in place at the time, a standing order, in Jerusalem, for the execution of anyone who upset the Pax Romana. Yeshua was a threat to the economic stability of a city based on the temple. He went in, and overturned the tables of the money changers. Why was that so bad ? Jesus was executed because he was a part of the Occupy the Temple movement. He was a threat to the authorities, both local and of the occupation, in a city, totally based on the temple economy. This cannot be over estimated, in my view. There were fees for the temple offerings, fees for bathing before going to the temple, fees for lodgings for all the festivals, fees for preparation of the offerings, fees for the priests, fees for entrance to all the levels of the temple, fees to feed the offering animals, etc etc. etc., and they ALL had to be ritually paid in Jewish currency, which had to be changed from the Roman coinage of the day. Jesus threatened the economic base of the city, (of Jerusalem), because he was a radical insurrectionist. They had been looking for him, (as the gospels state) and watching him, and when he did that, (in the temple) it was the last straw. All the rest, (re "salvation"/Paulianity) is a later interpretation, and fantasy. He was a public nuisance, and they got rid of him. It's that simple. He was a gnat on the arm of the Pax Romana. All the rest is crap. It may be only part of the story. But at the very least, it's a part.

The paragraph about Jesus in Josephus, is almost certainly a forgery, which is another matter.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
13-04-2012, 04:19 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
How about you read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

You could then educate yourself.

Every mystery ever solved has turned out to be not magic. - Tim Minchin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-04-2012, 04:47 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
Of course Jesus never existed, or else we would have all sorts of written evidence from his time. There were tons of historians at that time and nobody ever mentioned Jesus at that time, they started mentioning him after the 325 AD and the most famous Council of Nicea. That is where Jesus and the whole Christianity were born, that is where Bible was made as we know it today, that is where they have changed history and future to strengthen the power and the control of the Roman emperor Constantine throughout the Empire.

Also, all the things we "know" about Jesus were stolen from all sorts of other Gods/prophets form ancient history. Jesus is nothing more than a collection of different other Gods, rituals and traditions. Their goal was to include Jews into all this, but that didn't turn out as they have planned for, because Jews have discarded the Jesus as the Messiah. It must be because Jewish people tend to write things down, have tradition stories that pass from generation to generation, so when some emperor invented their Messiah, they knew that he wasn't real, because they never hear of him before.

So, you can clearly see how it is all connected and makes perfect sense, it is all logical and simple.

Quidsane has elaborated all this and much more in much more details, I just used simplicity and logic to make it easier to read, for you lazy bastards.

You can thank me whenever.

Big Grin

P.S.
I like how Egor has explained his religious view on the Jesus person, that is actually pretty logical and intelligent, since he is a believer, meaning that people who are like Egor usually tend to go crazy over the fact that we think Jesus did not exist. To think of him not as a person, but as an idea is pretty advanced and I can accept that kind of thinking much easier than to push Jesus as something ultimate, real and original, when it is clear that is all very controversial. Accepting him as an IDEA changes all that and it all becomes irrelevant.

We may not agree with that, Egor still believes in him as true, real and ultimate, but what he said about the idea of Jesus is a good way to put things into a perspective if you are a religious person. Much better than to literally push Jesus person in the first line.

[Image: a6505fe8.jpg]
I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-04-2012, 05:05 AM (This post was last modified: 13-04-2012 05:21 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(13-04-2012 04:47 AM)Filox Wrote:  Of course Jesus never existed, or else we would have all sorts of written evidence from his time.


That's really not true. Why would there be "all sorts of written evidence" for a nobody. Is there all sorts of evidence for all the many many other wandering apocalyptic preachers of that time ? Nope. And BTW, he IS mentioned a LOT by all the gospel writers, (Thomas, Mary, Peter, Judas, etc.), the Q sourse, and the Books of Sayings, (which were used as synoptic sources, (see the Jesus Seminar)), WAY before Nicaea. So, you're partly correct about the mythology appropriation, but not correct about the development.

As for Egor ...one of the distinguishing features of most Christianities, (and there are countless, and always have been), is that usually, historically it develops in a worshiping community. Egor has been told he is not a Christian, by his compatriots on the web, (todays way of branding him a "heretic").

Christianity developed in isolated communities .. Jerusalem Antioch, Ephesus, Alexandria, Rome. There were no radios, no TV, no phones, no newspapers, no internet ...no one knew what the others were up to. They were ALL different, until attempts were made at "orthodoxy" in the councils. They only partially succeeded. The nut jobs, (Joe Smith, Egor), who self promote from OUTSIDE a community run the risk of being outside the mainstream, because they fail to understand the historically communal nature of their own religion.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post
13-04-2012, 05:59 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
Weren't all the Gospels subject to change in the Counsel of Nicea? That means that we can not take them as truthfull, because they have been censored, so that is out. And who told you that there is no evidence for all sorts of other preachers from Jesus time?

John The Baptist, Mithras, Simon Magus, Apollonius of Tyana, Simon Bar Kochba, and Isis all have documented records from that time and they all have some powers that Jesus had, even more. I consider them and similar people to be the basics for making the "Jesus persona".

[Image: a6505fe8.jpg]
I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-04-2012, 06:28 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
I go with Quidsane on this. Of course, a bunch of atheists can decide for themselves, but for me, historicity is fail. Not that it matters. Xenu is obviously fail, and lookit all the dopes that believe in that fluff. Dodgy

What does it mean to be "born again in spirit/ one with the Christ?" Egor obviously doesn't know, all the crediting of evil that cat does. Tongue

Another thing - the epistles of Paul (Thessalonians and Romans) make it clear, at least to me, that "jesus" is concept and not corporeal.

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-04-2012, 06:31 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(13-04-2012 05:05 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(13-04-2012 04:47 AM)Filox Wrote:  Of course Jesus never existed, or else we would have all sorts of written evidence from his time.


That's really not true. Why would there be "all sorts of written evidence" for a nobody. Is there all sorts of evidence for all the many many other wandering apocalyptic preachers of that time ? Nope. And BTW, he IS mentioned a LOT by all the gospel writers, (Thomas, Mary, Peter, Judas, etc.), the Q sourse, and the Books of Sayings, (which were used as synoptic sources, (see the Jesus Seminar)), WAY before Nicaea. So, you're partly correct about the mythology appropriation, but not correct about the development.

According to the only real account of jesus (the bible), he certainly wasn't a nobody. I am not sure what version of events you have in your mind but someone who goes around curing the blind and raising the dead certainly wouldn't be a nobody, or maybe that kind of thing is normal where you reside.


Now if someone like this existed in ANY time period, do you not think someone with such miraculous powers, such a 'huge' following would have been recorded?

Or were they so caught up in the moment that all the historians of the time simply forgot to write about him?

Every mystery ever solved has turned out to be not magic. - Tim Minchin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: