Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
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13-04-2012, 04:16 PM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
Liar, legend, lunatic.

I believe its the later, although I haven't researched it into detail.

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
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14-04-2012, 07:29 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(13-04-2012 03:15 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Why would anyone write about him ?

Because he was a local entropic minimum. Silly. Big Grin

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14-04-2012, 08:19 AM (This post was last modified: 14-04-2012 02:08 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(13-04-2012 12:04 PM)Egor Wrote:  If we don't we are destroyed. If we reject it, He sends us to hell. Believing in Jesus, putting your faith in Jesus does not mean you believe the man existed 2000 years ago. It means you read his life and teachings and with your own free will orient yourself toward that ideal. You say to yourself, "This is true. This is the way to God. This is really being alive." You say to God, "I don't want to be what I was; I want to be like that." That is faith in Jesus Christ.

That is true. I am not a Christian. Which leaves me free to see the truth. I am a Veridican. I follow the life and teachings of Jesus Christ as recorded in The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ. That's it. Christians seem to follow a million other things as well as Jesus, and you can't have two (or more) masters.


Just a few of the problems with that are :

a. Yeshua bar Josef never said anything about hell, or the "destruction" of anyone. Your salvation paradigm was cooked up/invented by Saul of Tarsus. It's Paulianity. It has NOTHING to do with Jesus of Nazareth. They made all that crap up later. Do you know ANYTHING about the historical development of that cult ?

b. There is no such thing as "free will". You, of all people, ought to know that. Psych nurse, indeed. Sad





Your statement implies that somehow I could "choose" to SAY I "believe" something, when I really don't, and somehow your deity would find that authentic. You must have a really stupid god, if you think she wouldn't know that, and prefers dishonesty.

The fact is, you are yet another, in the long line of Joel Osteen wannabes. There is a new book out today, you should look at. It's called, "Bad Religion...How We Became a Nation of Heretics". http://coreysviews.wordpress.com/2012/04...-heretics/

You say "Free will is given to man, by god". Each person can choose to accept god's love and spend eternity in heaven or to reject god and spend eternity being tortured in Hell. How is that freedom of choice when it is the same thing as The Godfather, making you an offer you cannot refuse?

The problem with free will is, that you have insisted on god being omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent.
No god can be all three at the same time. The attributes contradict each other.

If god knows what she will do in the future and because she is omnipotent, does something else, then she is not omniscient.
If god knows what she will do in the future and cannot do something else, then she is not omnipotent.
See the problem?

If god knows the future, if the future can be known, that means that the future is predictable and unchangeable. This, in turn, means that our actions are predetermined. If god is all knowing, free will is an illusion.
This also binds god, in that she knows what she will do in the future, and she must do it.

Let's look at Jesus and his predictions that Judas would betray him and Peter would deny him.
Those were future events. Do you think Judas could have used his free will to opt out? Not, if Jesus/god was omniscient. Same goes for Peter.
The actions of Peter and Judas were predetermined. They had no choice.

When Moses was attempting to secure the release of the Jews, from Egypt, god repeatedly "hardens Pharaoh's heart". God did not allow Pharaoh to release the Jews, until He had delivered His 10 plagues upon the Egyptian people. Pharaoh didn't have free will.

Biblical prophecy would not be possible, unless events and human actions were predetermined and there is no free will.
The fulfillment of a prophecy cannot be left to random chance.

What about the child who is murdered by a monster, or a people slaughtered by a stronger opponent (or a god)?
Did they choose to be harmed? Where was their free will? These acts show that the strong or the people in power have greater free will than their victims. Hmmm... See how this fits in with the free will / god exists thingy ?

If god has a "plan for each of us", if there is an agenda, then that pretty much rules out free will.

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

"You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]

You might argue, that while god has a plan for each of us, she doesn't force us to follow this plan. The problem with this argument, is that if a person does not follow god's plan, it may effect my ability to follow god's plan. A drunk driver may run me down. A robber may shoot me.

Ephesians 1:11 "We have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."

"this man [Christ Jesus] delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23a NASB).

The 6 point Calvinists believe our fates are sealed, even before we are born. This would mean that god allows humans to be born, knowing they will someday burn forever. Seems wrong to me, even for a mysterious god.

There is no evidence that a god gives or safeguards free will.
Actually, there is no evidence that god(s) exists anywhere, in any dimension, or universe.

It's off to splatball. Have a good weekend kids. Einstein

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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14-04-2012, 10:07 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
thank you to everyone who has posted on this thread.
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14-04-2012, 02:00 PM (This post was last modified: 14-04-2012 02:04 PM by Starcrash.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(13-04-2012 02:10 AM)Egor Wrote:  None of this matters. I wrote a response to this on my website (Horus and Jesus). Too much time has passed and there are many good reasons for fraud to have occurred as well as book burnings by those who never wanted anyone to know about Jesus Christ. There are too many conflicting interests.

What does matter is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is the concepts in there that save us. This is the Jesus we know; the only one we can know. It doesn't matter what Josephus said or didn't say, we know the Jesus of the Gospels, and we all have a copy of those.

What should be discussed is what is Jesus Christ. What does it mean to be born again and be one with Christ?

Reality can be greatly overrated at times. We all exist as a thought in the mind of God, so the "reality" of Jesus is, for us, at this point in time, a thought in our heads. We read the Gospel, and we come to know Jesus Christ. That's all there really is to it.
Do you believe that the teaching of Scientologists --- the need to drive out one's engrams through auditing --- is the important part, and that a person should not bother debating whether engrams actually exist or not?

If there was no Jesus, there's no good reason to "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ" in order to be saved.

So quiet, please... there are grown-ups talking here.
(14-04-2012 10:07 AM)Daftheed Wrote:  thank you to everyone who has posted on this thread.
If no one posted this link yet, then I must. It's too good to pass up --- Bart Ehrman's course on The Historical Jesus. He confirms that Jesus probably existed and was probably an apocalyptic prophet. But of course it's possible that he never existed and the gospels contain pure propoganda... it's simply probable that Jesus existed, given the evidence.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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14-04-2012, 07:29 PM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(14-04-2012 02:00 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  If no one posted this link yet, then I must. It's too good to pass up --- Bart Ehrman's course on The Historical Jesus. He confirms that Jesus probably existed and was probably an apocalyptic prophet. But of course it's possible that he never existed and the gospels contain pure propoganda... it's simply probable that Jesus existed, given the evidence.
Yes! I have been listening to this since last week. I started over though so that I could take notes. I have found it very informative and useful. I love that he is teaching in NC. I wonder how many of his students have changed their minds after taking his class.
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14-04-2012, 09:26 PM (This post was last modified: 14-04-2012 09:47 PM by Blood.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
As far as Josephus and the Testimonium Flavianum is concerned, Plutarch writing at the same time documented the biographies of Isis and Osiris. Were they real, too? 'Nuff said about ancient historical method. If the Egyptian gods had become the dominant cultural myth in the West, the same scholars would today be playing the same game with Plutarch that they currently do with Josephus.

It appears to me that the Christos theology perhaps started as the mysteria of a Greek-speaking cult on the fringes of Judaism, somewhere in Anatolia or Alexandria (i.e., not Judea). It was perhaps proselytes (or their children) who had converted to the Jewish religion at some point but eventually relapsed and became estranged from ethnic Jews. Over time, these Gentiles convinced themselves that they were the actual chosen ones, not ethnic Jews. God had chosen the Jews originally, but they "killed all their prophets" (as the Jesus character was made to say), so it was time for the Gentiles to take over maintenance of the (Greek, since they couldn't read Hebrew) Scriptures. Christos slowly became historicized as an allegorical device to simultaneously demonize Jews while providing a justification for the Gentiles stealing their religion. Anti-Semitism is not an "unfortunate later development" in Christianity. It was the whole reason why the Jesus-as-Christos mythos was necessary in the first place. An historical Jesus not only wasn't necessary, such a figure would have hindered, not helped, this development.

What was actually going through the minds of Paul and Mark as they developed these myths? They probably sincerely believed they had found "the secret mystery hidden in the Scriptures but now revealed to us through the holy spirit," as Paul says in one of his letters (paraphrased). The "gospel" they found was there in Greek Old Testament all along, but was hidden until God opened their eyes through "the holy spirit." Christos appears 38 times in those books.

People were interested in monotheism but they didn't want to have to convert to Judaism or be subservient to Jews. The cult of YHWH was the oldest monotheism around, plus it had massive intellectual property supporting it in the form of the Scriptures. Paganism could offer nothing like that. Christianity filled a social need.

(14-04-2012 02:00 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  If no one posted this link yet, then I must. It's too good to pass up --- Bart Ehrman's course on The Historical Jesus. He confirms that Jesus probably existed and was probably an apocalyptic prophet. But of course it's possible that he never existed and the gospels contain pure propoganda... it's simply probable that Jesus existed, given the evidence.
The problem is that the primary "evidence" was constructed by ancient mystics whose understanding of reality was utterly removed from our own. Myth became "tradition" within a generation, and by the time the euaggelion reached the ears of people like Josephus and Tacitus, tradition had become "history." This same process happened all throughout ancient times and well into the Renaissance period. Modern historical method only begins to climb out of the chaos of myth, tradition, and legend in the 1700s.

Ehrman's series is definitely worth hearing and perhaps the apocalyptic model is correct. It's main problem (and it's a huge one) is its' inability to explain how an Aramaic-speaking, anti-Roman, illiterate peasant, pro-Torah Galilean apocalyptic movement became the mirror opposite of that within 25 years of Jesus's death. We would need a much, much stronger set of explanations than the current lame one ("Paul's mission to the Gentiles was successful") to account for this major cultural shift within such a short period.
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14-04-2012, 09:59 PM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(14-04-2012 09:26 PM)Blood Wrote:  ...how an Aramaic-speaking, anti-Roman, illiterate peasant, pro-Torah Galilean apocalyptic movement became the mirror opposite of that within 25 years of Jesus's death.


Hear, hear! Clap Clap

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14-04-2012, 10:02 PM (This post was last modified: 14-04-2012 10:20 PM by San Onofre Surfer.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(14-04-2012 09:26 PM)Blood Wrote:  Ehrman's series is definitely worth hearing and perhaps the apocalyptic model is correct. It's main problem (and it's a huge one) is its' inability to explain how an Aramaic-speaking, anti-Roman, illiterate peasant, pro-Torah Galilean apocalyptic movement became the mirror opposite of that within 25 years of Jesus's death. We would need a much, much stronger set of explanations than the current lame one ("Paul's mission to the Gentiles was successful") to account for this major cultural shift within such a short period.

In Aramaic, and the ancient form of Hebrew, (when I learned them), there IS NO WORD for "historic", or "historical". They did not think in those terms.
re the shift : I think it's right under our noses, and we don't see it. As Bucky said, Paul changed everything. The conflict with James and the Jerusalem community was HUGE, and is pretty well documented in Acts, among other places. Paul did invent what it became .. I don't see what's so difficult about that. Jeebus probably spoke Greek and Latin also, BTW. And he almost certainly was NOT illiterate, as he seemed to walk and talk among the literates in his small Galilean area .. Capharnum, Magdala etc. Paul did his own thing, and fought like hell with James about what he was doing and saying. And certainly the changes were not monolithic. As stated above, the communities all developed in isolation, (and Paul was always bitching about what was going on in various other places, that he didn't like).

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15-04-2012, 12:58 AM (This post was last modified: 15-04-2012 01:02 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
The word "christ", (Greek Χριστός - Khristós) (annointed one) is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), the Messiah. The translation appears in the Hebrew Septuagint which predates Christianity by over a century, and is used in the NT, to refer to Jesus. There is some evidence that the immediate contemporaneous folowers were thinkng of Yeshua already in those terms, because they were said to have asked him "will you at this time restore the kingdom" .... and almost certainly looked at him as a possible political leader, while he was still alive. (Am hoping Mark Fulton happens by and will weigh in on this).

But the question does remain, for me, where did Paul get the salvation paradigm from ? Not from Mark, (and certainly NOT from Jesus), as neither talk about it. The secrets thing is dead on. Not sure I buy the anti-Semitic thing, without more evidence, as the Jerusalem group (Jesus' brother James), still ran the show, even after Paul's death. I also can't imagine why Josephus would bother with listening to the "euangelion' at all. He didn't care what those crazy unimportant people said, and it was NOT unique. The Yahweh cult was NOT "monotheistic". The "covenant" was an agreement to not worship other gods, NOT that they didn't believe in other gods. By the time of Jesus it could have become nominally monotheism, but it sure didn't start out that way, and if it was, it would have only been so for a couple hundred years.

Paul never read any of the gospels. He was not aware of their existence, in any of his letters. He refers to the "euangelion", but not to specific texts. But basically I do agree, Paul was trying to wrest the power away from the Jerusalem community, and broaden the scope. But it didn't actually happen until well into the 2nd Century, so he was not very successful, practically. Until then, Christians remained basically a subsect, within Judaism.

Interesting about the "secret mystery", both because "mystery cults" were so numerous in the Greek world, and there is that fragment from the "Secret Gospel of Mark", that is usually discounted. The sources for Mark were the Q document, and a Book of Sayings, which isn't exactly "myth development", especially considering the original version ended with the empty tomb, and NO resurrection, in my view.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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