Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
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15-04-2012, 05:22 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(15-04-2012 12:58 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  But the question does remain, for me, where did Paul get the salvation paradigm from ?

Extrapolated it from the Egyptian and his own experience as a high mucky-muck among the Jews. Through a lifetime of training and devotion, he was able to enter the Holy of Holies in Jerusalem, into the "presence of YHWH. From that comes the "born again" spiel, what I rag on Egor about. Wink

He also foresaw the decline and extinction of Judaism, and it was his intention to reinvigorate his religion with an evangelical form that did not depend on birth and long initiation rites. He presented his hypothesis to the Jews, but they were hide-bound traditionalists that loved to spend all day being rules lawyers and pontificating to the blue collar crowd. They didn't care about YHWH so much as their own position, so they ostracized Paul. Thus Paul, in turn, ostracized them. This ruckus gave his fictional "jesus" concept an enemy people to serve as an example of what not to do; he couldn't use the Romans because his nascent cult would have gotten smacked up.



(15-04-2012 12:58 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Paul never read any of the gospels.

Cause there wasn't any gospels. Paul's crew spun them up from whole cloth to fortify his jesus meme after his death.

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15-04-2012, 07:12 AM (This post was last modified: 15-04-2012 08:23 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(15-04-2012 05:22 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Extrapolated it from the Egyptian and his own experience as a high mucky-muck among the Jews. Through a lifetime of training and devotion, he was able to enter the Holy of Holies in Jerusalem, into the "presence of YHWH. From that comes the "born again" spiel, what I rag on Egor about. Wink

He also foresaw the decline and extinction of Judaism, and it was his intention to reinvigorate his religion with an evangelical form that did not depend on birth and long initiation rites. He presented his hypothesis to the Jews, but they were hide-bound traditionalists that loved to spend all day being rules lawyers and pontificating to the blue collar crowd. They didn't care about YHWH so much as their own position, so they ostracized Paul. Thus Paul, in turn, ostracized them. This ruckus gave his fictional "jesus" concept an enemy people to serve as an example of what not to do; he couldn't use the Romans because his nascent cult would have gotten smacked up.

(15-04-2012 12:58 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Paul never read any of the gospels.

Cause there wasn't any gospels. Paul's crew spun them up from whole cloth to fortify his jesus meme after his death.




Yabut, yabut ... the absolute seminal event for these people was the destruction of Jerusalem, in 70 CE.

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There is no over-estimating that. It destroyed their world and worldview, just like the previous one did in 580's BCE. Just like the prior one, the fallout caused a total re-evaluation of the meaning of everything. Paul died in 67 CE. I don't know how much of the decline of Judaism HE foresaw, before that event. I still don't get where the salvation thing comes from. Can you tell me more about that ? There is nothing in Judaism that I know of, that talks about a need for the "righteous one" to intervene, on a personal level, between a "born again" as a "sacrifice" for anything. It just pops up in Paul. I want to understand EXACTLY where he got that. Before Paul, it was all about the "righteous one" being a political leader ONLY.

I love the snarkyness between ole Petey and Paul. "I opposed Peter to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong". Paul says that he told Peter: "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs ?" (Gal. 2:11-14). Paul also mentions that Barnabas, (his traveling companion and fellow apostle until that time) sided with Peter.

In L. Michael White's "From Jesus to Christianity', he says "The blowup with Peter was a total failure of political bravado, and Paul soon left Antioch as persona non grata, never again to return." I think the James group, and the Petey group hated his f'ing guts.

Anyhoo, is there something in Egyptian mythology that calls for a "savior", ( in any other sense than a political one), or am I reading your post incorrectly ? (cuz it's not in the Hebrew tradition, nor the Greek tradition). The only thing I really know about the Egyptian myth system, is that it's likely monotheism arose there, with the Aten stuff, was rejected, and then re-arose later.

I s'pose I should re-read Elaine pagel's Adam and Eve and the Serpent, as she thinks that it was Augustine that manipulated the Genesis text to say that we are inherently sinful, and the Catholic Church adopted his interpretation as a means of control, and intimidation, (the need for "confession" etc). So by then the "salvation" thing is well established, but I don't get where the "fall" of Adam becomes synonymous with the "fall" of all humanity/creation. That's actually a very odd idea.
Initially Xtianity was a dissident sect that espoused individualism, and the idea of free will, and got morphed into a support for the new imperial order -- with the central belief that human beings cannot choose not to sin ? How VERY VERY strange. Actually THAT idea, was originally considered heresy, and guess what, THAT'S now the ultimate orthodox position. Hmm.

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15-04-2012, 07:30 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
The Hebrew tradition began with Moses leading his peeps out of Egypt - isn't that a savior? Prophets were people imbued with the Holy Spirit from god. Paul's vision was to make a "perfect vessel" - the Christ - that could be the intermediary of this Holy Spirit from god. All Christians are essentially prophets; the Savior is merely the meme of "Jewish salvation" at the personal level.

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15-04-2012, 07:51 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(15-04-2012 07:30 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  The Hebrew tradition began with Moses leading his peeps out of Egypt - isn't that a savior? Prophets were people imbued with the Holy Spirit from god. Paul's vision was to make a "perfect vessel" - the Christ - that could be the intermediary of this Holy Spirit from god. All Christians are essentially prophets; the Savior is merely the meme of "Jewish salvation" at the personal level.


Yes it is, and the early writers used that analogy, but it's not an ontological statement of a fundamental "disjoint" between a (sinful) creature/human and the creator, necessitating a sacrificial remedy, to put things "aright". It's still Moses as political leader only. No ?

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15-04-2012, 08:31 AM (This post was last modified: 15-04-2012 08:33 AM by houseofcantor.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
Not so much, but it's a useful tool to recruit converts to Paul's new form of Judaism. Wink
Hadda think about this -

(15-04-2012 07:51 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  it's not an ontological statement of a fundamental "disjoint"

- for a minute. Tongue

It's almost like cantorspeak. Big Grin

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15-04-2012, 09:28 AM (This post was last modified: 15-04-2012 10:28 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(15-04-2012 08:31 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Not so much, but it's a useful tool to recruit converts to Paul's new form of Judaism. Wink
Hadda think about this -

(15-04-2012 07:51 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  it's not an ontological statement of a fundamental "disjoint"


- for a minute. Tongue

It's almost like cantorspeak. Big Grin


So the catorspeaking, anal-retentive Buckminster still wants to know, "where did the tool come from" ? No one is THAT original. He MUST have appropriated it from somewhere...the hunt goes on.

But maybe it's starting to make sense. If Paul and Luke were aware of each other, and the numerous "conversion" experiences, (Paul in Acts, the Eunuch in Acts), and THAT concept was already known as a paradigm, (the "forgiveness of sin" .. which even John the Baptist was yacking about), then maybe I'm off base here. http://books.google.com/books?id=01N07qE...&q&f=false , and the Pauline version is just the Greek, (double decker universe world view), reinterpretation of the already extant need for "conversion". But Paul STILL was the first to say that the "universe was set right", and through the sacrifice of Jeebus, and that the forgiveness obtains from the sacrifice, (not a conversion)... so maybe not. That's my story, and I'm stickin with it. When confronted with John the Baptist's conversion/baptism, Jeebus didn't object, and in fact submitted to it, so HE didn't at that point think HE was a "savior".

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15-04-2012, 10:18 AM (This post was last modified: 15-04-2012 10:24 AM by Blood.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
The YHWH cult was definitely monotheistic by the first century. You're thinking of the much earlier period where the priests were willing to at least acknowledge that other gods were legit in some respects.

The soteriology of Christianity is derived from mystery religion. Dying "in Christ" and gaining immortality through this mystery is not a Jewish concept at all, but analogous to rites performed to figures such as Dionysus and Mithras.

It's interesting to me that people have such a hard time wrapping their heads around the idea that early Christianity was anti-Semitic. Can you point to one passage in the NT that actually portrays "The Jews" in a positive light? Given the extremities of the rhetoric, it's hard to believe there ever was a Jerusalem church where "Jews and Gentiles" happily worshipped side by side. Besides, proselytes considered themselves "Jews" in the religious sense.
(15-04-2012 05:22 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(15-04-2012 12:58 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  But the question does remain, for me, where did Paul get the salvation paradigm from ?
Extrapolated it from the Egyptian and his own experience as a high mucky-muck among the Jews. Through a lifetime of training and devotion, he was able to enter the Holy of Holies in Jerusalem, into the "presence of YHWH.

The salvation paradigm came from the mystery religions. It isn't Jewish at all. Paul is not a rabbinical thinker. If he was ever a Pharisee, he was an incredibly bad one.
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15-04-2012, 10:41 AM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2012 05:02 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(15-04-2012 10:18 AM)Blood Wrote:  The YHWH cult was definitely monotheistic by the first century. You're thinking of the much earlier period where the priests were willing to at least acknowledge that other gods were legit in some respects.

The soteriology of Christianity is derived from mystery religion. Dying "in Christ" and gaining immortality through this mystery is not a Jewish concept at all, but analogous to rites performed to figures such as Dionysus and Mithras.

It's interesting to me that people have such a hard time wrapping their heads around the idea that early Christianity was anti-Semitic. Can you point to one passage in the NT that actually portrays "The Jews" in a positive light? Given the extremities of the rhetoric, it's hard to believe there ever was a Jerusalem church where "Jews and Gentiles" happily worshipped side by side. Besides, proselytes considered themselves "Jews" in the religious sense.
(15-04-2012 05:22 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Extrapolated it from the Egyptian and his own experience as a high mucky-muck among the Jews. Through a lifetime of training and devotion, he was able to enter the Holy of Holies in Jerusalem, into the "presence of YHWH.

The salvation paradigm came from the mystery religions. It isn't Jewish at all. Paul is not a rabbinical thinker. If he was ever a Pharisee, he was an incredibly bad one.


I can see that, (a combo of "conversion" with the mystery cults).

(But the Yahweh cult sprang from Babylonian Elohim stuff, and Genesis is practically a re-write of Marduk Slaying the Dragon of Chaos Myth, (and the Gilgameh Epic), and it was NOT just the "priests" who believed in MANY other gods). It was a constant problem all through their history, that the people kept reverting to worshiping the gods of the surrounding communities. The only reason they settled on Yahweh, (the "Lord of Hosts" or the "God of the Armies", was that they wanted protection in battles .. and when they LOST battles, they rationized that by saying the reason for the loss, was that they bet the wrong horse). It remained a problem until at the very earliest, the Babylonian Exile .. granted THAT was hundreds of years earlier.

I don't see the anti-Semitic thing. They were almost ALL Jews, until well into the 2nd Century. That doesn't compute for me. Jesus was a Jew, James was a Jew, etc., and THEY are portrayed in a positive light. What am I missing here ?

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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15-04-2012, 11:49 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(15-04-2012 10:41 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I don't see the anti-Semitic thing. They were almost ALL Jews, until well into the 2nd Century. That doesn't compute for me. Jesus was a Jew, James was a Jew, etc., and THEY are portrayed in a positive light. What am I missing here ?
Where do Jesus, Paul, and James make a positive, "proud to be a Jew" statement? Paul seems proud enough to declare that is a "Hebrew" who advanced among the Pharisees, but then proceeds to rant like a maniac about "The Jews" for endless lengths. Not just against specific Jews or Pharisees he doesn't like, but Jews in general. "They are the enemies of all men," etc. By contrast, he (as well as the Jesus character) pour constant praise on the Gentiles. Nothing suspicious about that, no.

Outside of the legendary "apostolic age," no Christian Jews are known from the late 1st/early 2nd century. Clement I, Evodius, Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Papias, Marcion, Valentinius, et al., not only were not Jewish; several of them reaffirmed the anti-Jewish tone of the NT in their own writing.
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15-04-2012, 11:59 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(15-04-2012 11:49 AM)Blood Wrote:  
(15-04-2012 10:41 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I don't see the anti-Semitic thing. They were almost ALL Jews, until well into the 2nd Century. That doesn't compute for me. Jesus was a Jew, James was a Jew, etc., and THEY are portrayed in a positive light. What am I missing here ?
Where do Jesus, Paul, and James make a positive, "proud to be a Jew" statement? Paul seems proud enough to declare that is a "Hebrew" who advanced among the Pharisees, but then proceeds to rant like a maniac about "The Jews" for endless lengths. Not just against specific Jews or Pharisees he doesn't like, but Jews in general. "They are the enemies of all men," etc. By contrast, he (as well as the Jesus character) pour constant praise on the Gentiles. Nothing suspicious about that, no.

Outside of the legendary "apostolic age," no Christian Jews are known from the late 1st/early 2nd century. Clement I, Evodius, Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Papias, Marcion, Valentinius, et al., not only were not Jewish; several of them reaffirmed the anti-Jewish tone of the NT in their own writing.


Agree it certainly developed..no doubt about it. But Jeebus, and James had no need to say something about that, if was just a "given" that there was no problem, that early. I wouldn't venture to say anything about Paul. He was so screwed up, it would only be a simplification of his vast .... shall we say .... conflicted state. I don't go around saying I'm proud to be a Scotish/Irish guy. It's irrelevent. I'm asking for evidence that there was anti-Semitic attitudes in the predominantly Jewish cult, as early as Jesus/James. I don't see it, that early.

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