Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
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15-04-2012, 12:23 PM (This post was last modified: 15-04-2012 12:28 PM by Antirepublican.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(12-04-2012 08:26 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(12-04-2012 08:25 PM)Daftheed Wrote:  Was there REALLY a jesus?

Most likely yes.

However it is pretty unlikely he was the Son of God and debatable he even claimed to be.

If this topic interests you I'd recommend speaking to Mark Fulton, he's just written a book about Jesus and the beginnings of Christianity.
Wrong again...

Most likely NO. His story is merely plagiarized from other stories of the time. There were a lot of well documented frauds running around this time claiming to be divine, yet no mention of this Jesus fellow. In fact, there is no mention of this guy in history at all outside the bible, which is of course not even close to being historically accurate.

I will never understand why atheist cling to this Jesus fellow. If you actually read the Bible, his ideas weren't even that great. Do you really need to cling to this last desperate string to relate yourself with Christians? I promise you that they will hate you, regardless if you pretend to believe in the existence of Jesus 2000 years ago.
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15-04-2012, 02:27 PM (This post was last modified: 15-04-2012 02:31 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(15-04-2012 12:23 PM)Antirepublican Wrote:  Most likely NO. His story is merely plagiarized from other stories of the time. There were a lot of well documented frauds running around this time claiming to be divine, yet no mention of this Jesus fellow. In fact, there is no mention of this guy in history at all outside the bible, which is of course not even close to being historically accurate.

I will never understand why atheist cling to this Jesus fellow. If you actually read the Bible, his ideas weren't even that great. Do you really need to cling to this last desperate string to relate yourself with Christians? I promise you that they will hate you, regardless if you pretend to believe in the existence of Jesus 2000 years ago.

Yeah, well unfortunately, not "wrong again".

What exactly are the "stories of the time" they were "plagerized" from?

There WERE mentions of the guy, in extra biblical texts.

Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64,

the Roman historian Tacitus wrote :

"Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . ."

I've seen the Josephus documents, (The Jewish Antiquities), and you can tell the first paragraph about Yeshua was at least altered/forged, BUT, the comment about James, (being condemned by the Jewish Sanhedrin) is NOT in dispute. It identifies him as follows :

"This James, was the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ."

There are a few clear references to Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud, a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately A.D. 70.
The most significant reference to Jesus from this states:

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."

Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:

"The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws."

Attempting to understand hisory, and the development of religion(s) is not "clinging" to anything.
It's an attempt to figure out how we got to where we are. It's also NOT an attempt to "relate" to Christians.
Some of us know FAR more about that cult than they do. I could care less what they think of me, ("hate me" ??) ..
Who cares ? I'm interested in history.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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15-04-2012, 03:47 PM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(15-04-2012 11:59 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Agree it certainly developed..no doubt about it. But Jeebus, and James had no need to say something about that, if was just a "given" that there was no problem, that early. I wouldn't venture to say anything about Paul. He was so screwed up, it would only be a simplification of his vast .... shall we say .... conflicted state. I don't go around saying I'm proud to be a Scotish/Irish guy. It's irrelevent. I'm asking for evidence that there was anti-Semitic attitudes in the predominantly Jewish cult, as early as Jesus/James. I don't see it, that early.
Do we know that it ever was a "predominantly Jewish" cult? Acts of the Apostles tries to give that impression, but considering that Acts is as reliable a source for actual history as Star Trek, I wouldn't say that counted for much.

So we get back to where we started from yesterday. A Jesus/James Jerusalem church only makes sense as a pro-Torah, anti-Roman, Aramaic/Hebrew messianic Judaic cultural phenomenon, not unlike the Essenes. But nothing in the surviving documents supports this at all. Just the opposite. We are instead led to believe that Jesus and his Jewish followers wanted to abrogate the Torah and convert all the Jews to a brand new religion, one that opposed ALL Pharisees but welcomed all the Gentiles with open arms, including those cool Roman centurians that Jesus praises so much. This is total mythological bullshit. No such "Jewish" church ever existed.

There are nearly 8,000 verses in the NT. If, as Amy-Jill Levine insists in a recent article, that the NT is "Jewish literature written by and for Jews," then it's reasonable to expect that some of those verses should speak positively and proudly of fellow Jews, Judaism, the Torah, Moses, and so on. Yet you need a magnifying glass to find even one.
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15-04-2012, 05:18 PM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(15-04-2012 03:47 PM)Blood Wrote:  So we get back to where we started from yesterday. A Jesus/James Jerusalem church only makes sense as a pro-Torah, anti-Roman, Aramaic/Hebrew messianic Judaic cultural phenomenon, not unlike the Essenes. But nothing in the surviving documents supports this at all. Just the opposite. We are instead led to believe that Jesus and his Jewish followers wanted to abrogate the Torah and convert all the Jews to a brand new religion, one that opposed ALL Pharisees but welcomed all the Gentiles with open arms, including those cool Roman centurians that Jesus praises so much. This is total mythological bullshit. No such "Jewish" church ever existed.


Nope. I don't buy it. The words placed in Jesus' mouth were "I have not come to destroy the law and the prophets, but to fulfill them". The shift away from Jadaism happened AFTER the Second (Barkukba), Revolt, (132 CE). There IS evidence that the James community fought with Paul and wanted to remain as Jews. What "documents" are you talking about ? Why would they publicize a conflict, if if were not true ? Jesus talks about many classes of "others", Romans, Samaritans, etc. It does not mean he was anti-Jewish. He was a good Jew. He celebrated all the Jewish festvals. Please provide some documentation.

http://www.livius.org/ja-jn/jewish_wars/jwar04.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...ion/watch/ , (especially Part II).

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16-04-2012, 02:42 AM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2012 02:51 AM by Antirepublican.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(15-04-2012 02:27 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(15-04-2012 12:23 PM)Antirepublican Wrote:  Most likely NO. His story is merely plagiarized from other stories of the time. There were a lot of well documented frauds running around this time claiming to be divine, yet no mention of this Jesus fellow. In fact, there is no mention of this guy in history at all outside the bible, which is of course not even close to being historically accurate.

I will never understand why atheist cling to this Jesus fellow. If you actually read the Bible, his ideas weren't even that great. Do you really need to cling to this last desperate string to relate yourself with Christians? I promise you that they will hate you, regardless if you pretend to believe in the existence of Jesus 2000 years ago.

Yeah, well unfortunately, not "wrong again".

What exactly are the "stories of the time" they were "plagerized" from?

There WERE mentions of the guy, in extra biblical texts.

Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64,

the Roman historian Tacitus wrote :

"Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . ."

I've seen the Josephus documents, (The Jewish Antiquities), and you can tell the first paragraph about Yeshua was at least altered/forged, BUT, the comment about James, (being condemned by the Jewish Sanhedrin) is NOT in dispute. It identifies him as follows :

"This James, was the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ."

There are a few clear references to Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud, a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately A.D. 70.
The most significant reference to Jesus from this states:

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."

Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:

"The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws."

Attempting to understand hisory, and the development of religion(s) is not "clinging" to anything.
It's an attempt to figure out how we got to where we are. It's also NOT an attempt to "relate" to Christians.
Some of us know FAR more about that cult than they do. I could care less what they think of me, ("hate me" ??) ..
Who cares ? I'm interested in history.
You seriously don't know that the biblical story of jesus is just a mash of various other religious stories? Yet quote this trash as support of his existence? Your so called evidence, even assuming its trustworthy, is information after he died. Which is of course worthless.

Even if you make the terrible assumption he existed, that only leaves 2 options,

#1 He was a fraud
#2 He didn't claim to be the son of god. In which case he is not the figure portrayed by the bible, thus the character we know as jesus didn't actually exist.


So, best case scenario is he was a fraud like Joseph Smith....thus not worthy of any admiration,
Not that the character in the bible is either really....I mean Hitler had some good ideas too.
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16-04-2012, 05:03 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(16-04-2012 02:42 AM)Antirepublican Wrote:  
(15-04-2012 02:27 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Yeah, well unfortunately, not "wrong again".

What exactly are the "stories of the time" they were "plagerized" from?

There WERE mentions of the guy, in extra biblical texts.

Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64,

the Roman historian Tacitus wrote :

"Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . ."

I've seen the Josephus documents, (The Jewish Antiquities), and you can tell the first paragraph about Yeshua was at least altered/forged, BUT, the comment about James, (being condemned by the Jewish Sanhedrin) is NOT in dispute. It identifies him as follows :

"This James, was the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ."

There are a few clear references to Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud, a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately A.D. 70.
The most significant reference to Jesus from this states:

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."

Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:

"The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws."

Attempting to understand hisory, and the development of religion(s) is not "clinging" to anything.
It's an attempt to figure out how we got to where we are. It's also NOT an attempt to "relate" to Christians.
Some of us know FAR more about that cult than they do. I could care less what they think of me, ("hate me" ??) ..
Who cares ? I'm interested in history.
You seriously don't know that the biblical story of jesus is just a mash of various other religious stories? Yet quote this trash as support of his existence? Your so called evidence, even assuming its trustworthy, is information after he died. Which is of course worthless.

Even if you make the terrible assumption he existed, that only leaves 2 options,

#1 He was a fraud
#2 He didn't claim to be the son of god. In which case he is not the figure portrayed by the bible, thus the character we know as jesus didn't actually exist.


So, best case scenario is he was a fraud like Joseph Smith....thus not worthy of any admiration,
Not that the character in the bible is either really....I mean Hitler had some good ideas too.


Unfortunately again, you are still wrong. Saying something is "worthless", or "so called" is not an argument. Tell us why exactly those quotes are not to be trusted. That argument is worthless. Those are not the only options. The sources for most of the biblical texts are well known. You really ought to learn about something before you start blabbling away about it. "Information from after death" does NOT invalidate anything. You seriously don't know anything about History or Archaeology do you. Calling something "trash" is not an argument. What are your "other religious stories", exactly. Cough up the documentation. In context.

The figure in the gospels never claimed to be the son of god. So 1. obviously you have never really objectively studied those texts, or the development of the claims, and 2. that fact that posthumously, claims are made about an historical figure, by others, somehow means he/she never existed is preposterous. That's simply too stupid to argue. The "divinity" claims are complex, and multiple, and different for/from each text, and each one had a long developmental history and context. Have you EVER taken a course in the NT ? Apparently not. Let's hear about the biblical texts, and place EACH ONE in the context of these "other stories".

Define "fraud". He could have been many things, or not many things. One man's "fraud" is another man's god. He is neither for me. I just want to understand the development of the cult(s) that his followers formed. We're not talking about being "worthy of admiration". Joseph smith existed. His followers claimed he was a prophet. The claims do not mean he didn't exist. "Admiring Jesus" is not what this discussion is about. This discussion is also NOT about the "character" YOU know as Jesus. The question/thread was, was there an actual person named Jesus (Yeshua bar Josef), who we know historically as Jesus of Nazareth. The fact that you think he was a "fraud", (whatever that means), and/or the discussion about the divinity claims are both irrelevant. So yeah. Wrong again.

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16-04-2012, 05:24 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
Here's another link from the "no" side of the fence: linky-linky


For me, it's simple. I'm a prophet, I remember being with Paul in Corinth, I knew what the little fuck was up to. There's yer documentation 'cause I just documented it, silly. Big Grin

Nah. I don't know what the fuck those "memories" mean; most likely they're not "truth" as is commonly understood but rather indicative of the validity of the Witwiki symbolism... ok, I go way now. Big Grin

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16-04-2012, 05:56 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
Just when I was about to believe all those scholars that Bucky quoted, HoC comes and saves me back into non-believing. Thank you my friend, I am in your debt.

Haha, do you see how all those account of Jesus were false and non dated from the time of Jesus himself?

Big Grin

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16-04-2012, 06:20 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
High-five. Big Grin

I saw a golem on the cross with the word ADAM written across its forehead - are you supposed to be encouraging my delusions! Big Grin

Questioning Jesus for me began with Sulla, of all people. I mean, all the shit I've read about the decline of the Roman republic and birth of empire, and I came across a single line that a rabble rouser was crucified? I wuz like, WTF? I went back and forth on believing from 97 until 10 when I saw that crazy shit after reading Ezekiel. Now it's a definite doesn't matter with a side of most likely not. Wink

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16-04-2012, 06:33 AM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2012 06:45 AM by Blood.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(15-04-2012 05:18 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Nope. I don't buy it. The words placed in Jesus' mouth were "I have not come to destroy the law and the prophets, but to fulfill them". The shift away from Jadaism happened AFTER the Second (Barkukba), Revolt, (132 CE). There IS evidence that the James community fought with Paul and wanted to remain as Jews. What "documents" are you talking about ? Why would they publicize a conflict, if if were not true ? Jesus talks about many classes of "others", Romans, Samaritans, etc. It does not mean he was anti-Jewish. He was a good Jew. He celebrated all the Jewish festvals. Please provide some documentation.
Yeah, he supposedly says this while simultaneously telling people that dietary laws are irrelevant, etc.

He repeatedly refers to "their" laws, "their" ancestors, "your" prophets, etc.


What evidence is there that the James community fought with Paul? Oh yeah, the NT. The NT is not evidence for the NT. We need information outside of the NT.

Jesus of the gospels is a LITERARY CHARACTER. To say that he was a "good Jew who celebrated all the Jewish festivals" is to pretend that the gospels are historical biographies. They're nothing of the sort. They are narrative theology starring Jesus as God-man. Whatever the Jesus character does in the gospels fulfills a plot function -- if he goes to Jerusalem to celebrate Passover, it's not because this is an historical memory of Mark, it's because Mark wants him to be killed by the Jews during Passover, like a paschal lamb. Mark couldn't care less about whether Jesus actually went to festivals or not. That would be irrelevant to his story.

There may have been an historical Jesus, but that is quite a separate issue than the personality of the gospels. That person is a literary character shaped and molded by evangelists who says and does exactly what the writer wants him to say.

"The figure in the gospels never claimed to be the son of god."


Mark 1:1 The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God

The literary character in the gospels doesn't need to claim that he's the son of God. The reader is made aware of that from the first line of the story.
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