Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
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16-04-2012, 06:45 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
Caps don't make it so. NO YELLING! Big Grin

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16-04-2012, 08:55 AM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2012 08:11 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(16-04-2012 06:33 AM)Blood Wrote:  There may have been an historical Jesus, but that is quite a separate issue than the personality of the gospels.


Thank you. That's ALL we're talking about here. YOU introduced the discussion of the rest. NO one is saying anything about the literary figure in the gospels. The question was....I repeat.... "was there a Jesus ?". Sheesh.

BTW, the fact that MARK says he was the son of god, does not mean he CLAIMED to be the son of god. It's not one of the sayings the Jesus Seminar gives any credence to. He probably never claimed that. Again, you obviously have never studied the gospels, objectively.

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16-04-2012, 09:15 AM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(16-04-2012 06:33 AM)Blood Wrote:  There may have been an historical Jesus...


No evidence of this, so... No.

However, there's plenty of evidence to the contrary to go around.

Enough for everybody! YAY!

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A little light reading:

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

http://www.atheismresource.com/2010/jesu...ted-at-all

http://truth-saves.com/jesus-christ-never-existed/

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16-04-2012, 05:23 PM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2012 06:49 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(16-04-2012 09:15 AM)Quidsane Wrote:  No evidence of this, so... No.
However, there's plenty of evidence to the contrary to go around.
Enough for everybody! YAY!
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A little light reading:
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/
http://www.atheismresource.com/2010/jesu...ted-at-all
http://truth-saves.com/jesus-christ-never-existed/


At least a couple people actually have the balls to provide some documentation for what they assert. I"ve learned a lot in this thread. Thanks to the ones who did.

The Ehrman lectures on the subject are interesting. Scroll down, (audio files 9 and 10). http://archive.org/details/HistoricalJesus

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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16-04-2012, 06:29 PM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
I belive there was Jesus. The person as described is too contradicting and has many flaws which would hardly be there if he was created solely as the "hero" by writters of the Bible.
Was he a son of God? Nope. And Mary most likely, had a "backalley" sex covered by convinient lie and found a guy naive enough to trust her - if she existed at the first place.
He probably was an idealist, kind fo like a hippie of our day - but at his time, people who were too loud, annoying and possibly crazy got crucified as an example of why you should stay low and silent.
And so he did get crucified. And he died. End of the story. ... And the few followers he had kept spreading things about him. And then ... Well, you know the rest of the story.
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16-04-2012, 07:26 PM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(16-04-2012 08:55 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(16-04-2012 06:33 AM)Blood Wrote:  There may have been an historical Jesus, but that is quite a separate issue than the personality of the gospels.


Thank you. That's ALL we're talking about here. YOU introduced the discussion of the rest. NO one is saying anything about the lierary figure in the gospels. The question was....I repeat.... "was there a Jesus ?". Sheesh.

BTW, the fact that MARK says he was the son of god, does not mean he CLAIMED to be the son of god. It's not one of the sayings the Jesus Seminar gives any credence to. He probably never claimed that. Again, you obviously have never studied the gospels, objectively.
And you obviously have great difficulty distinguishing between narrative theology and real history. Which is good, it demonstrates my point of what a brilliant literary craftsman Mark was -- still fooling people into assuming he's an historian after 2,000 years. I'd like to see Dan Brown do that! Jesus "claims" whatever Mark The Evangelist wants him to claim. Jesus does not claim what Mark doesn't want him to claim. Mark doesn't have his Jesus character claim that he's the "son of god" because it's a secret that only he, Jesus, and you, the lucky reader, are in on. By knowing this secret from the first line of the story, Mark effectively puts the reader inside Jesus's head, makes him identify and sympathize with the Jesus character, and make him hate the Jews, Pharisees, Pilate, and the apostles for being so ignorant and evil to not recognize the obvious fact that this really is the son of god. All literature can hope to accomplish is to make its readers identify with the characters and not think that they are only reading a mere piece of fiction. Mark succeeded in this task beyond his wildest dreams.

What were you saying about studying the gospels "objectively"?
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16-04-2012, 07:46 PM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
(16-04-2012 07:26 PM)Blood Wrote:  And you obviously have great difficulty distinguishing between narrative theology and real history. Which is good, it demonstrates my point of what a brilliant literary craftsman Mark was -- still fooling people into assuming he's an historian after 2,000 years. I'd like to see Dan Brown do that! Jesus "claims" whatever Mark The Evangelist wants him to claim. Jesus does not claim what Mark doesn't want him to claim. Mark doesn't have his Jesus character claim that he's the "son of god" because it's a secret that only he, Jesus, and you, the lucky reader, are in on. By knowing this secret from the first line of the story, Mark effectively puts the reader inside Jesus's head, makes him identify and sympathize with the Jesus character, and make him hate the Jews, Pharisees, Pilate, and the apostles for being so ignorant and evil to not recognize the obvious fact that this really is the son of god. All literature can hope to accomplish is to make its readers identify with the characters and not think that they are only reading a mere piece of fiction. Mark succeeded in this task beyond his wildest dreams.

And YOU have great difficulty sticking to the point at hand. I get the difference, and I understand the propaganda purpose of the gospels. But it might be possible to tease out , with literary critical/comparative methods, some of the probable historical events. If Jesus actually said he was the son of god, he would have been stoned. On the other hand, many many Jewish characters, kings, and leaders were called "sons of god". It was not a unique title. You keep mixing up the historical question at hand with the mythological Jesus, (which I totally agree with you about). You're actually refuting yourself here. What Jesus claims in Mark is NOT the point here. I don't care what Mark has him claiming many years later. The question was, yet once again ... was there an historical person, who actually existed, who set off the chain of events ? I suspect there was. And since I can't ask anyone to prove a negative, we're out of luck I guess. Have you listened to the Ehrman letures ? If so, what do you find faulty about his methodology ? We were NOT talking about the literary character, even though YOU keep insisting that we do so, and then using that strawman, to try to tell me what I'm saying, which is NOT what I'm saying. The ONLY thing I said, was that I think there might have been an historical Jesus. You have provided not one piece of documentation to suggest I should change my mind. I'd be very open to chinging my mind, if I saw some EVIDENCE.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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16-04-2012, 08:08 PM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2012 08:23 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
Ummm ... there might've been. Blush Was I not supposed to eat it? I mean it'd been sittin' there for a while. Didn't want to let it spoil and have to throw it out entirely. ... Guess I just can't understand why everyone can't help but be their own personal Jesus. There's nobody else can be my sorry ass Saviour.




As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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16-04-2012, 09:11 PM
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
I am SOOOOO disappointed in this thread. Seven pages in and no one has provided the definitive evidence that is obvious.

Of course, Jesus existed.

But everybody knows that "NOBODY fucks with the Jesus."


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16-04-2012, 09:19 PM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2012 09:33 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Educate me. Was there a Jesus?
Ok genius persons. The first of the Ehrman lectures directly contradicts the PBS Frontline researchers, who said the majority of 1st Century Xtians were Jews. Ehrman specifically states they were not. Where to find the facts ? If Ehrman is correct, then maybe Blood is too ?
BTW, the first lecture has a good explanation from where the sacrifice/salvation thingy came from, (Greek, as stated above...which is where Paul must have gotten it).

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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