Effective/ineffective debate arguments ?
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27-04-2014, 09:05 PM (This post was last modified: 27-04-2014 09:11 PM by sporehux.)
Question Effective/ineffective debate arguments ?
I've found over the years I have fallen into a trap of thinking my anti-theist point was a slam dunk, only to realise the theist had dismissed it for some reason or misunderstood the implication, and in some cases I was using the theist equivalent of the 2nd law of thermodynamics argument (in their mind).

Lately ive had more success in dismantling existing theological claims and so called self evident evidence in the bible, shining a light on the contradictions, forcing my opponent into the "trickster god" corner.

Is there a better way to present particular augments that normally fail.

What have you guys/gals found to work and not work ? (in real life debates)
there are a few lists around the web "10 things atheists should not say" etc., some I agree, some not so much.
not successful somewhat successful

the circular logic agument, bible>god>bible
Where did god come from

why was there no global genocidal flood in china
did all current races of human evolve from Noah
science (when explained simply)
how did Noahs family spawn enough offspring to create all the slaves in Egypt for the Moses story
Why are most of the bible hero's such c*nts


Get their mind to accept the bible is not infallible and they can dismantle most of the remaining delusions on their own.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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28-04-2014, 07:13 AM
RE: Effective/ineffective debate arguments ?
Great idea for a thread. I do have one question:

(27-04-2014 09:05 PM)sporehux Wrote:   the circular logic agument, bible>god>bible

Why is this one labeled as unsuccessful? Have you just not had luck with it, or do they find a "good" way to dismiss it?


As far as my own experience goes:

Any of the "God is a dick" arguments

The apologist will always find refuge in mysterious ways. I've gotten them to contradict themselves in other topics (switch from problem of evil to something like heaven, and they'll invalidate previous stances), and they still don't budge.


Asking why the Holy Spirit has a harder time reaching people in other regions of the world
I haven't deconverted anyone on that, but it tends to be thought of as a good question that people can't really answer.
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28-04-2014, 07:18 AM
RE: Effective/ineffective debate arguments ?
The thing is, up against any hard-headed theist, ALL of these arguments are useless, while debating with an open minded theist, all of these points can be taken into consideration.

Some of them are weaker than others, but the problem tends to lie more with who you're ddebating than the argument you're presenting sometimes.
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28-04-2014, 07:27 AM
RE: Effective/ineffective debate arguments ?
(27-04-2014 09:05 PM)sporehux Wrote:  I've found over the years I have fallen into a trap of thinking my anti-theist point was a slam dunk, only to realise the theist had dismissed it for some reason or misunderstood the implication, and in some cases I was using the theist equivalent of the 2nd law of thermodynamics argument (in their mind).

Lately ive had more success in dismantling existing theological claims and so called self evident evidence in the bible, shining a light on the contradictions, forcing my opponent into the "trickster god" corner.

Is there a better way to present particular augments that normally fail.

What have you guys/gals found to work and not work ? (in real life debates)
there are a few lists around the web "10 things atheists should not say" etc., some I agree, some not so much.
not successful somewhat successful

the circular logic agument, bible>god>bible
Where did god come from

why was there no global genocidal flood in china
did all current races of human evolve from Noah
science (when explained simply)
how did Noahs family spawn enough offspring to create all the slaves in Egypt for the Moses story
Why are most of the bible hero's such c*nts


Get their mind to accept the bible is not infallible and they can dismantle most of the remaining delusions on their own.

Thrown in my face a number of times is the old saw, "god is love".....
So here are some interesting numbers to use.....if you need to.
Approx. 150,000 people die around the world EACH DAY!
Assume 1/3rd are christians of some sort, so 50,000 christians die EACH DAY.
Approx. 10% of this group are "believers", so 5,000 "believers" die each day.
That leaves 145,000 "non believers" (christian and non-christian alike) dying daily
According to believers, once dead, a non-believer is damned to hell.
Therefore, in one year, 52.9 million non-believers are sent straight to hell.
The population of the US is 317 million; in 6 years, the believers will have sent the equivalent of the entire US population to hell.

And for what??

"Loving god"???? I think not.

"People don't go to heaven when they die; they're taken to a special room and burned!" Evil_monster
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28-04-2014, 07:48 AM
RE: Effective/ineffective debate arguments ?
The "god is love" argument and "he works in mysterious ways" arguments are incompatable, as the second one is usually given in response to terrible events while the first is usually used aroud god in general, or to claim something positive.

From these arguments, I think people are worshipping a powerless narcissist, happy to claim credit for everything, but powerless to do anything about the bad. Then again, santa, the tooth fairy an easter bunny are quite powerless too...




... and don't exist either.
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28-04-2014, 07:57 AM
RE: Effective/ineffective debate arguments ?
I have a new experimental arguement
(only works for monoincarnational religions.)
If life is the only pitstop for afterlife, why does god make us go through it in the first place? It's just a limited time before an unlimited time. It's basically .01 to the power of negative infinity over infinity. (Refute to "test us") and why would god test us on a limited amount of time, where we might not be able to access the holy texts?

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28-04-2014, 08:52 AM
RE: Effective/ineffective debate arguments ?
(28-04-2014 07:13 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Great idea for a thread. I do have one question:

(27-04-2014 09:05 PM)sporehux Wrote:   the circular logic agument, bible>god>bible

Why is this one labeled as unsuccessful? Have you just not had luck with it, or do they find a "good" way to dismiss it?

It's one ive used allot, and its one ive seen used in online debates frequently, I can't say why it fails, its like the wrong shaped enzyme, bounces off as if it was never uttered.
can you find a single instance of it ever being persuasive to the theist. would be interesting to see how it was phrased/presented.

My guess is its like pulling the carpet out from under you own feet to them, they are convinced its an illogical observation. weirdly I can't recall my own thoughts on it when I was religious, (I never had any Atheist friends to challenge me)

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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28-04-2014, 09:32 AM
RE: Effective/ineffective debate arguments ?
(28-04-2014 07:27 AM)RaisdCath Wrote:  
(27-04-2014 09:05 PM)sporehux Wrote:  I've found over the years I have fallen into a trap of thinking my anti-theist point was a slam dunk, only to realise the theist had dismissed it for some reason or misunderstood the implication, and in some cases I was using the theist equivalent of the 2nd law of thermodynamics argument (in their mind).

Lately ive had more success in dismantling existing theological claims and so called self evident evidence in the bible, shining a light on the contradictions, forcing my opponent into the "trickster god" corner.

Is there a better way to present particular augments that normally fail.

What have you guys/gals found to work and not work ? (in real life debates)
there are a few lists around the web "10 things atheists should not say" etc., some I agree, some not so much.
not successful somewhat successful

the circular logic agument, bible>god>bible
Where did god come from

why was there no global genocidal flood in china
did all current races of human evolve from Noah
science (when explained simply)
how did Noahs family spawn enough offspring to create all the slaves in Egypt for the Moses story
Why are most of the bible hero's such c*nts


Get their mind to accept the bible is not infallible and they can dismantle most of the remaining delusions on their own.

Thrown in my face a number of times is the old saw, "god is love".....
So here are some interesting numbers to use.....if you need to.
Approx. 150,000 people die around the world EACH DAY!
Assume 1/3rd are christians of some sort, so 50,000 christians die EACH DAY.
Approx. 10% of this group are "believers", so 5,000 "believers" die each day.
That leaves 145,000 "non believers" (christian and non-christian alike) dying daily
According to believers, once dead, a non-believer is damned to hell.
Therefore, in one year, 52.9 million non-believers are sent straight to hell.
The population of the US is 317 million; in 6 years, the believers will have sent the equivalent of the entire US population to hell.

And for what??

"Loving god"???? I think not.

That's a keeper. I would add one more thing. If god is in charge of everything and gets credit for the "miracle of birth" then he should also be accountable for all the miscarriages in the world. Here are some statistics, and I believe these numbers apply to only the USA :

More than 500,000 pregnancies each year end in miscarriage (occurring during the first 20 weeks).

Approximately 26,000 end in stillbirth (considered stillbirth after 20 weeks)

Approximately 19,000 end in infant death during the first month.

Approximately 39,000 end in infant death during the first year.

Approximately 1 in 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage; some estimates are as high as 1 in 3. If you include loss that occurs before a positive pregnancy test, some estimate that 40% of all conceptions result in loss.

Therefore God is without a doubt the biggest single abortionist the world has ever known.

Shove that in their damn faces.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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28-04-2014, 12:47 PM
RE: Effective/ineffective debate arguments ?
(28-04-2014 07:27 AM)RaisdCath Wrote:  
(27-04-2014 09:05 PM)sporehux Wrote:  I've found over the years I have fallen into a trap of thinking my anti-theist point was a slam dunk, only to realise the theist had dismissed it for some reason or misunderstood the implication, and in some cases I was using the theist equivalent of the 2nd law of thermodynamics argument (in their mind).

Lately ive had more success in dismantling existing theological claims and so called self evident evidence in the bible, shining a light on the contradictions, forcing my opponent into the "trickster god" corner.

Is there a better way to present particular augments that normally fail.

What have you guys/gals found to work and not work ? (in real life debates)
there are a few lists around the web "10 things atheists should not say" etc., some I agree, some not so much.
not successful somewhat successful

the circular logic agument, bible>god>bible
Where did god come from

why was there no global genocidal flood in china
did all current races of human evolve from Noah
science (when explained simply)
how did Noahs family spawn enough offspring to create all the slaves in Egypt for the Moses story
Why are most of the bible hero's such c*nts


Get their mind to accept the bible is not infallible and they can dismantle most of the remaining delusions on their own.

Thrown in my face a number of times is the old saw, "god is love".....
So here are some interesting numbers to use.....if you need to.
Approx. 150,000 people die around the world EACH DAY!
Assume 1/3rd are christians of some sort, so 50,000 christians die EACH DAY.
Approx. 10% of this group are "believers", so 5,000 "believers" die each day.
That leaves 145,000 "non believers" (christian and non-christian alike) dying daily
According to believers, once dead, a non-believer is damned to hell.
Therefore, in one year, 52.9 million non-believers are sent straight to hell.
The population of the US is 317 million; in 6 years, the believers will have sent the equivalent of the entire US population to hell.

And for what??

"Loving god"???? I think not.

The other thing christians throw at non believers is that satan does all these bad things like earthquakes and tsunamis and tornadoes and landslides because people aren't following gods rules so somehow non believers are responsible. God isn't morally responsible. He passes the buck, big time, to satan. It's all stupid.Hobo

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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28-04-2014, 06:50 PM
RE: Effective/ineffective debate arguments ?
(28-04-2014 09:32 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 07:27 AM)RaisdCath Wrote:  Thrown in my face a number of times is the old saw, "god is love".....
So here are some interesting numbers to use.....if you need to.
Approx. 150,000 people die around the world EACH DAY!
Assume 1/3rd are christians of some sort, so 50,000 christians die EACH DAY.
Approx. 10% of this group are "believers", so 5,000 "believers" die each day.
That leaves 145,000 "non believers" (christian and non-christian alike) dying daily
According to believers, once dead, a non-believer is damned to hell.
Therefore, in one year, 52.9 million non-believers are sent straight to hell.
The population of the US is 317 million; in 6 years, the believers will have sent the equivalent of the entire US population to hell.

And for what??

"Loving god"???? I think not.

That's a keeper. I would add one more thing. If god is in charge of everything and gets credit for the "miracle of birth" then he should also be accountable for all the miscarriages in the world. Here are some statistics, and I believe these numbers apply to only the USA :

More than 500,000 pregnancies each year end in miscarriage (occurring during the first 20 weeks).

Approximately 26,000 end in stillbirth (considered stillbirth after 20 weeks)

Approximately 19,000 end in infant death during the first month.

Approximately 39,000 end in infant death during the first year.

Approximately 1 in 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage; some estimates are as high as 1 in 3. If you include loss that occurs before a positive pregnancy test, some estimate that 40% of all conceptions result in loss.

Therefore God is without a doubt the biggest single abortionist the world has ever known.

Shove that in their damn faces.

I'd avoid bringing up anything having to do with babies to a conservative Christian pro lifer. They'll totally lose track of the point of the conversation. After all, miscarriages are part of God's "mysterious plan." The last prolife Christian I discussed this with started telling me how abortion is more tragic than the Holocaust. Once you get down in those weeds you can't get back out.

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