Ego / god... a test.

[DLJ]

(09-03-2013 11:13 AM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  This seems like a pretty interesting test. I hope someone gets the chance to put it in practice. Data gathered will further be able to hone this.

Good point. Well made.

[kellyrm]

(09-03-2013 11:35 AM)DLJ Wrote:  

(09-03-2013 11:13 AM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  This seems like a pretty interesting test. I hope someone gets the chance to put it in practice. Data gathered will further be able to hone this.

Good point. Well made.

I think most theists would view God as being good (all 10s), but may take points off for themselves in areas they know they lack in. I do love the concept, but I think it's a waste of time to persuade the seriously brainwashed to understand your point of view. I was a Christian for the majority of my life, until I did my own research. Having someone else tell me did not good-it just put me on the defensive. However, seeking knowledge for myself opened my eyes to the hypocrisy of religion and I don't think many theists are open-minded enough to do anything other than believe what they are taught to believe. I think the test may be better-suited for agnostics or other people that are generally confused about religion, but not devoted theists.

[Mr Woof]

(09-03-2013 11:35 AM)DLJ Wrote:  

(09-03-2013 11:13 AM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  This seems like a pretty interesting test. I hope someone gets the chance to put it in practice. Data gathered will further be able to hone this.

Good point. Well made.

Yes getting the Chrissies to engage presents a difficulty?

Would they answer as they thought was demanded by their taught convictions perhaps?

Needs some fine tuning.

Think I'll stick to my favourite parlour game......Legs eleven?

[StorMRising]

(09-03-2013 12:38 AM)Phaedrus Wrote:  The Perfect God / Worthless Sinner mentality is too common for this to work. And most theists will just put all 10/10 for the God morality evaluation.


It's a good idea, but you need a different test. The best way to do this, I think, would be to find out what these people think of the rest of the group, based on their own judgements, then ask them to rate the others based on god's standards. Then compare the different results for different people. Most peoples' conception of god's morality is based on their own, so their rating and their "god" rating should be almost identical. Point that out, then compare between people to demonstrate how each person sees god's morality as being identical to their own. Then show them what the bible actually says to drive the point home.

[Starcrash]

(09-03-2013 01:01 PM)kellyrm Wrote:  

(09-03-2013 11:35 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Good point. Well made.

I think most theists would view God as being good (all 10s), but may take points off for themselves in areas they know they lack in. I do love the concept, but I think it's a waste of time to persuade the seriously brainwashed to understand your point of view. I was a Christian for the majority of my life, until I did my own research. Having someone else tell me did not good-it just put me on the defensive. However, seeking knowledge for myself opened my eyes to the hypocrisy of religion and I don't think many theists are open-minded enough to do anything other than believe what they are taught to believe. I think the test may be better-suited for agnostics or other people that are generally confused about religion, but not devoted theists.

This is probably why anecdotal evidence isn't "good" evidence -- it tends to have a very small sample size. Just because "having someone else tell [you] did no good" doesn't mean that debate is useless in every case. I was also a Christian for roughly 20 years before I was won over by argument. I don't mean to suggest that it happened all at once, but the fact that there were questions that I didn't have good answers for led me down the path to atheism.

And the lack of open-mindedness is not a theist problem, but an irrational one. Obviously there are open-minded theists, otherwise you and I and many others would not have changed our minds and become atheists. Irrational people are the ones who never question their own arguments or consider that they might be wrong.

[DLJ]

(09-03-2013 09:46 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  

(09-03-2013 01:01 PM)kellyrm Wrote:  I think most theists would view God as being good (all 10s), but may take points off for themselves in areas they know they lack in. I do love the concept, but I think it's a waste of time to persuade the seriously brainwashed to understand your point of view. I was a Christian for the majority of my life, until I did my own research. Having someone else tell me did not good-it just put me on the defensive. However, seeking knowledge for myself opened my eyes to the hypocrisy of religion and I don't think many theists are open-minded enough to do anything other than believe what they are taught to believe. I think the test may be better-suited for agnostics or other people that are generally confused about religion, but not devoted theists.

This is probably why anecdotal evidence isn't "good" evidence -- it tends to have a very small sample size. Just because "having someone else tell [you] did no good" doesn't mean that debate is useless in every case. I was also a Christian for roughly 20 years before I was won over by argument. I don't mean to suggest that it happened all at once, but the fact that there were questions that I didn't have good answers for led me down the path to atheism.

And the lack of open-mindedness is not a theist problem, but an irrational one. Obviously there are open-minded theists, otherwise you and I and many others would not have changed our minds and become atheists. Irrational people are the ones who never question their own arguments or consider that they might be wrong.

Yup, 'irrational' is the right word for my christian colleague.

I've known her for 5 years or more and she was born in the Philippines where the catholic force is strong.

She believed (maybe still does) that her god makes rainbows and all that childish shit.

She first started to realise that there were people who did not think like her when I expressed my opinion about a project in which she had a small involvement... a new $6 billion church in Manilla. I asked her how much money it would take to fix the rampant diabetes problem that the Philippines has.

A year or so ago, I asked (more as a passing comment) what religion she would be if she had been born in Saudi Arabia of Saudi parents. There was a silence and her expression was one of utter bewilderment. This had never crossed her mind before.

A few months back, we watched Philhellenes' Dust That Sings together and made a lasting impression.

Drip, drip, drip, drip.

She recently went over to Texas to meet a potential husband who she had meet on a christian dating site. He was checking the compatibility of their faiths. She told me that while he was talking, some of the questions I had asked her over the years kept popping into her mind.

Drip, drip, drip.

Note that my audience (initially, anyway) will be Mocktail Muslims © who like the occasional self-assessment game, tarot reading etc.

The approach does indeed need fine tuning and suggestions are welcomed.

Kellyrm,
You say "Having someone else tell me did no good" and I agree. This is why I don't want the bible-bashing ending (or quran for that matter) that Phaedrus recommended. That's an interesting twist and might be appropriate with a different audience, but not what I have in mind this time.

This time, I want it to be a tiny thought-provoking over-drinks bit of fun... drip, drip, drip.

I don't even intend to announce any profound conclusion... no 'telling' just 'asking'.

[LadyJane]

I'm not so sure all Christians would have the straight 10's score for God's morality. Sure, a lot are all 'God is fluff and rainbows' variety, but many understand the fear and wrath of God. Perhaps before the charting there could be some rhetorical prompts that explore both biblical representations. The awesome part to this game is the group dynamic.

I wish you would have hosted a bunch of these and have the results already!

[LadyJane]

Sorry, I didn't pick up on the no-bible bit until I reread. Point being, use various God-morale examples to prompt an all encompassing picture.

[DLJ]

(10-03-2013 12:09 AM)LadyJane Wrote:  Sorry, I didn't pick up on the no-bible bit until I reread. Point being, use various God-morale examples to prompt an all encompassing picture.

Thank you. Yes, I think it needs some of that in the set up. The 6 morality scales need some examples.

I was thinking of using some neutral examples so as not to give the game away too early.

If not 'examples', then perhaps 'questions' e.g. for 5. Authority, asking "Is it more important to stick to rules and perhaps miss an an opportunity or better to go for it when you can?"

I'm hinting at Divine Command Theory there (is child sacrifice OK if god commands it?) but might use a traffic example (jumping lanes without signalling).

I suspect that with that example / question, my christian friend who is in Sales and very competitive, would be on the Red end of the scale when it comes to god but on the Blue end of the scale when it comes to e.g. breaking the rules to win business (and earn bonus).

She might pick 10 for Authority of god yet her colleagues, I'm sure, will pick 1 (because she cannot and will not follow internal process and it drives everyone crazy because it creates pain for them).
I also think that she does not realise she does it so she would challenge the group view.

Therefore her view of herself would align to her god.

This is why it needs to be a fun exercise not a threatening one because things like that can get heated unless the mood is right.

Any suggestions regarding the examples / questions for the 6 'moralities'?

Cheers

[kellyrm]

(09-03-2013 11:44 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I agree that bible bashing at the end would be out of line. I took religious studies in college and was absolutely astounded by the different views people had of bible meanings--thus my search for answers. I think this interpretation variation may also lead people to give god less than a 10 in their minds-but I think in a crowd they would say 10 just to be "good Christians." If this research is for your own good or to explain the results to someone at a later time, I think it is a great idea. Once it becomes about judging the participants or trying to sway their beliefs, I think you have a problem.

(09-03-2013 09:46 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  This is probably why anecdotal evidence isn't "good" evidence -- it tends to have a very small sample size. Just because "having someone else tell [you] did no good" doesn't mean that debate is useless in every case. I was also a Christian for roughly 20 years before I was won over by argument. I don't mean to suggest that it happened all at once, but the fact that there were questions that I didn't have good answers for led me down the path to atheism.

And the lack of open-mindedness is not a theist problem, but an irrational one. Obviously there are open-minded theists, otherwise you and I and many others would not have changed our minds and become atheists. Irrational people are the ones who never question their own arguments or consider that they might be wrong.

Yup, 'irrational' is the right word for my christian colleague.

I've known her for 5 years or more and she was born in the Philippines where the catholic force is strong.

She believed (maybe still does) that her god makes rainbows and all that childish shit.

She first started to realise that there were people who did not think like her when I expressed my opinion about a project in which she had a small involvement... a new $6 billion church in Manilla. I asked her how much money it would take to fix the rampant diabetes problem that the Philippines has.

A year or so ago, I asked (more as a passing comment) what religion she would be if she had been born in Saudi Arabia of Saudi parents. There was a silence and her expression was one of utter bewilderment. This had never crossed her mind before.

A few months back, we watched Philhellenes' Dust That Sings together and made a lasting impression.

Drip, drip, drip, drip.

She recently went over to Texas to meet a potential husband who she had meet on a christian dating site. He was checking the compatibility of their faiths. She told me that while he was talking, some of the questions I had asked her over the years kept popping into her mind.

Drip, drip, drip.

Note that my audience (initially, anyway) will be Mocktail Muslims © who like the occasional self-assessment game, tarot reading etc.

The approach does indeed need fine tuning and suggestions are welcomed.

Kellyrm,
You say "Having someone else tell me did no good" and I agree. This is why I don't want the bible-bashing ending (or quran for that matter) that Phaedrus recommended. That's an interesting twist and might be appropriate with a different audience, but not what I have in mind this time.

This time, I want it to be a tiny thought-provoking over-drinks bit of fun... drip, drip, drip.

I don't even intend to announce any profound conclusion... no 'telling' just 'asking'.