Egor's Proof of God
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24-12-2011, 09:35 PM (This post was last modified: 24-12-2011 09:40 PM by Hughsie.)
RE: Egor's Proof of God
Ok, I've got a few points to address here;

(24-12-2011 04:48 PM)Egor Wrote:  However, I challenge you to point out where I ever said I hate atheists.

Egor: I hate atheism with a passion. I don't hate you; I hate atheism. (Post 34 on 'Hello Atheists of Thought').

'Nuff said there I think. That is called an implication, if someone said 'I don't hate black people, just blacks' then yes, they are still a racist. Same concept.

Quote:Look at you, losing all your composure for no reason at all. Tapping out fighting words to a real fighter, and yet you’re nothing more than a loud mouth drunk. Why don’t you go sit down before you fall down.

That is not a challenge to a fight, I'm sure we can all see that.

As far as the drunk comment goes, yes, it's not the nicest comment. However if you market yourself as a 'drunken slanderer' then you kinda gotta expect alcohol comments.

Quote:He claimed success for debates he wasn't even close to winning

Most people who have posted on this thread have claimed to be right, Egor is no different.

Quote:What is it? C’mon. Some kind of sexual immorality? Why do you want to be an atheist?

I'm really not gonna defend that. What the hell does 'sexual immorality' have to do with this? Why are fundamentalists so obsessed with everyone else's sex-lives?

Quote:I pointed out to him that he ignores valid arguments, that he answers with personal insults to valid points, that he's rude and he claims victory for no good reason. His reply was "you say that like it's a bad thing"

As an atheist it probably isn't wise to bring up the topics of personal insults and rudeness on this thread. I say that as an atheist.

Quote:Atheists and Christians should not be “friends.” If they are, there’s something wrong.

That is just plain ridiculous.

Quote:Are you getting this KC and Sharks? I hope so. It’s time to nut-up or shut up.

Again, that is a ridiculous comment. You degrade yourself by coming out with something like that. I know most people on here will disagree but I actually think you are far better than that comment implies.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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24-12-2011, 10:51 PM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
Nothing is perfect.
God is perfect.
Ergo, God is NOTHING!!!
I WIN!!!

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25-12-2011, 12:21 AM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
(24-12-2011 09:35 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(24-12-2011 04:48 PM)Egor Wrote:  However, I challenge you to point out where I ever said I hate atheists.

Egor: I hate atheism with a passion. I don't hate you; I hate atheism. (Post 34 on 'Hello Atheists of Thought').

'Nuff said there I think. That is called an implication, if someone said 'I don't hate black people, just blacks' then yes, they are still a racist. Same concept.
Not same. Many of us hate Christianity, not Christians. Same concept. He's saying he hates a stupid idea not the believer. But his blog and subsequent posts show that this is not true (at least, I read them that way). A man like KC I can respect because he genuinely lives his Christianity, he is respectful of others beliefs and when he debates, he maintains his politeness. This clown needs some life experience.

Quote:
Quote:Are you getting this KC and Sharks? I hope so. It’s time to nut-up or shut up.

Again, that is a ridiculous comment. You degrade yourself by coming out with something like that. I know most people on here will disagree but I actually think you are far better than that comment implies.
He is? He's as good as he behaves. Not theoretically better inside or something. He behaves like a giant douche.
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25-12-2011, 12:49 AM (This post was last modified: 25-12-2011 01:14 AM by San Onofre Surfer.)
RE: Egor's Proof of God
(24-12-2011 09:16 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Egor,
Have a few questions for ya.

1. The word "existence" implies that a "life process" is taking place. For a process to be taking place, it means time exists, ALWAYS, and simultaneously. If god always "existed", then god was not the creator of the dimension of space-time, or "he" could not exist, because time had to exist, if not before him, at least begin simultaneously. (Of course one can agree that talking in these terms is meaningless, and saying anything about this stuff is impossible, given our language limitations.) Oh BTW, "observation" also requires the dimension of time to exist, simultaneously, if not a priori, as that is also a process.

2. If existence requires observation, then who was observing your god, and who set up the cosmic system which requires observation for existence? Before it created anyrthing, it was not observed, thus did not exist, in your world. How did it pop into existence ? Did it create the cosmic system ? If not it could not have either existed in it's own system, or was not the creator of it. Which is it ?

3. What does "observation" mean ? Does it mean that photons are entering something's optic system ? What are the limits of your theory here ? Can "observation" mean something else, or does the detection have to be in the observers direct capacity for (wavelength ?) detection ? Can an instrument be used ? If things cease to exist without observation, can I set up an indirect, (to the "umteenth" degree), observation system, which prevents existence from collapsing ?

Cool

Bucky,
You beat me to it. I was thinking about our discussion of the many attempts to circumvent or get around the observer problem with respect to quantum collapse. So what I was going to ask, is sort of what you were getting at. What if we set up a recording device, which records the observations, but no one is actually looking in real time ? Then the problem has at least two outcomes. Does "existence" depend on POTENTIAL observation, (cuz we don't HAVE to ever watch the recording), or does he exist only if we actually DO watch/observe the recording ? What if something happens, and the recording device fails, or records in a medium which we can't see or read at the time ? Who has to do the observation ? Can your puppy do it ? My head is gonna explode. It's all BS anyway. Huh Oh wait...what about the Relativity problem ? What if the observer and the object are not moving at the same speeds with respect to each other ? Never mind. He's never gonna answer anyway.

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25-12-2011, 07:30 AM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
Quote:Not same. Many of us hate Christianity, not Christians. Same concept. He's saying he hates a stupid idea not the believer.

Damn you and your superior logic Morondog! Upon reflection I have to concede that point.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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25-12-2011, 09:00 AM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
This guy got the worst of me. He managed to get me angry and I didn't have time to write, so I had to be quick in my last reply.

Why do we get upset about things like this and why do we say bad things to bad people like Egor? Because we see them as dangerous, their beliefs as even more dangerous and I do not mean his religious beliefs, but world views, political.

Communism: it is an extremist system where majority has pushed their system on to the rest of the people, it is meant to be good for everyone, but it is very easily transformed into dictatorship where the minorities suffer horrible things, oppressions, prosecutions, killings, beatings, jails, ban of their civil liberties and religion liberties.
- Example: USSR from 1945-1990, China form 1930's-1990's

Nazism: it is an extremist system where majority has pushed their system on to the rest of the people, it is meant to be good for the chosen part of the people, the Master Race, the pure ones. They are more valuable than the rest of the people, more valuable than the minorities, so the minorities are used as slaves, free labor, they are prosecuted, jailed, killed and experimented on, all in the name of better world for the Master Race. Everything is done for the more worthy majority, because the minorities are less valuable and they are on this Earth to serve the Master Race. if there is a religion, there is ONE religion and all other are banned.
- Example: Germany 1938.

Theocracy: it is an extremist system where majority has pushed their system on to the rest of the people, it is suppose to be good for everybody, as long as everybody accepts the main religion. The followers of the state religion are more worthy than the rest of the people, the minority has no voice, because they are heretics and if they fail to accept the one religion, they are tortured, jailed, killed. It is a dictatorship system with the Church as the supreme ruler.
- Example: Every country with Sharia Law, the whole Europe in the Dark Ages.

This is the reason why we get upset about this things, this is the reason I think that this guy is very dangerous for his country and for the rest of the countries. Theocracy walks a fine line between extreme communism and Nazism, so it has the worst oppression characteristics of both systems, but it's OK, because it is the Law of God. In those kind of systems the real Law of God is soon twisted and deformed to be even more strict and dangerous and the human liberties are taken away form people, all in the name of God and righteousness.

This is why we need to troll like this on our and on other forums, because thinking like this can get a lot of people killed or worse, so it is up to us to not let that happen and try to talk some sense into people who think this way, like Egor does. We don't need to try and make him an atheist, that would be stupid, but we can try to explain him the errors of his extremism. Will we succeed? Probably not, he needs professional help, but our part is done and our conscious is clear, we did what our moral commanded.

I am really sad that in the 2012 there are still people who think this way, people who use God for their own agenda, who think they are more valuable than the rest, people who want dictatorship and to impose their beliefs to everyone, people who don't mind making someone convert, even by force. This is racist, ignorant and intolerable behavior, nothing different that what Skinheads say and do, and I would know, I used to hang out with a bunch of Skinheads when I was younger, this is exactly the way they talk and behave.

So Egor, when I call you a racist and a Nazi, I call you that because you remind me of them, not because I want to offend you. I am telling you this to help you, not to make you look bad. There is nothing wrong with you being Christian and loving your religion, but your political beliefs and your view on other people is horrifying. I truly hope you will soften up a little with you world views.

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25-12-2011, 09:40 AM (This post was last modified: 25-12-2011 09:44 AM by Jackrabbit.)
RE: Egor's Proof of God
Ridiculous ideas should be met with ridicule.

the second article of the Egyptian constitution says that islam is the official state religion, secularists now are trying to amend that but not succeding due to wide spread ignorance and propaganda
we have no freedom of press (books against islam or the government frequently banned and many journalists and authors are political prisoners)
i agree with Filox, In Egypt although legally you cant kill someone for apostacy (due to the previous british occupation it has become a little more western)

but that wont stop the local mob for getting you if you become too outspoken, influenced by local religious figures as well as extremists from other countries.
and the legal system here is known to be too beurocratic where cases can last for years without progress, and sometimes a blind eye is turned since most of the politicians and people who work law enforcment are part of the religion. so while technically we have freedom of speech it always comes with a consequence to the minority of non believers.
most of the media is baised, even government channels such as the channel 1 and 2 have various programmings of interpretations of quraan and religious discussion (where the quraan is accepted as the one and only true religion. So basically it is a theocracy lite but non the less. in the recent elections of parliment the islamists got 75% of the votes
50% salafis, an extreme denomination of islam and the Ikhwan 25% another extreme denomination.
secularism is losing the fight in egypt thanks to the majority, and if u just look at the outrageous policies they have they would be publicaly shunned if they were parties in any western country.
No human is better than any other or should be above any other in rights and responsibilities in a society.
The politcal beliefs Egor and people like him hold are a danger to democracy, and free speech. and even if it is well intentioned it only
takes one charismatic extremist to end a country.
America is the flagship of the world currently and if something like this happened the whole world will be affected.
And seriously Egor's beliefs on the whole remind me of the Oslo bomber, Extremism of any belief political or religious is very dangerous.

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25-12-2011, 09:59 AM (This post was last modified: 25-12-2011 10:09 AM by NotSoVacuous.)
RE: Egor's Proof of God
200 post later I am not sure how bad this topic has derailed, so I will address the OP.


Quote:Existence requires observation. Since the universe had to exist before there was physical life in it that could observe it, there must have been a non-physical consciousness observing it. That consciousness would be the attribute of God. Therefore, God exists.

One simple flaw:

Implying things only exist if observed.

Proofs don't rest on assumptions.

Your argument is now dismantled. So, now can someone tell me why the fuck this went on for 21 pages?

Never mind, I see it has been derailed a LONG time ago... Also, do mods have the power to remove this reputation bullshit? I am tired of seeing every "religious" person coming in here and by the end of the day having negative rep. It's a fucking stupid option, this isn't a kids video game forum, although with the flashing signatures and epeen options it is looking so.

Simple put, if someone has something you don't agree with, dismantle it philosophically and let the audience determine the idiot. Tired of seeing a forced "I don't agree with you" negative rep.

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25-12-2011, 10:03 AM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
(25-12-2011 09:59 AM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  Your argument is now dismantled. So, now can someone tell me why the fuck this went on for 21 pages?

Because Egor has some pretty extreme beliefs (even by muslim standards), not you're run of the mill christian Ned Flanders over here, more like hitler in the making...

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25-12-2011, 10:05 AM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
(25-12-2011 09:59 AM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  200 post later I am not sure how bad this topic has derailed, so I will address the OP.


Quote:Existence requires observation. Since the universe had to exist before there was physical life in it that could observe it, there must have been a non-physical consciousness observing it. That consciousness would be the attribute of God. Therefore, God exists.

One simple flaw:

Implying things only exist if observed.

Proofs don't rest on assumptions.

Your argument is now dismantled. So, now can someone tell me why the fuck this went on for 21 pages?

Never mind, I see it has been derailed a LONG time ago...

/bow

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