Egor's Proof of God
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02-01-2012, 12:48 AM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
(02-01-2012 12:10 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  [Image: smiley-sex020.gif]

Sounds like fun. Oh wait, I have to keep it relevant. Um... something something Egor something something fallacy.


Dude.. put that smiley gif away.. yer going to get Girly's undies all bound up in a tangit wet mess!

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire
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02-01-2012, 03:27 AM
 
RE: Egor's Proof of God
(30-12-2011 10:47 AM)yosemitesam Wrote:  According to the dictionary on my computer:
faith: strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Merriam-Webster
2b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof

Oxford
2strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof

Last time I checked, Christianity was, and still is, a faith, along with Judaism, Islam, etc.
Nobody knows. Not yet. Because there is no proof.

This is my rebuttal to the opening statement, and any claim that a god exists until proof is given.

I was a born again Christian. Been there. My first year of college, my roommate was a theology major. Long story short, here I am.
Peace.

Oh, granted. What are called "proofs" of God are not really proofs. They are evidences. Most arguments for the existence of God don't even point to the Christian revelation of God, but rather something more abstract. The word "proof" is often misused in theological debates, and I misuse it as well.

Evidence can get you close, but God is far to big for us to hold in our minds, so there always comes a point in the progression of evidence where one has to step over with faith. There's always a point where one has to say, "I can't get any closer, but I'm close enough. Bang. This is what I believe. This is what I'm going to believe, and here I stand.

You were born again at one time. You believed at one time, or did you really ever believe? Sounds like you go with the crowd. Born again as a kid, then you go to college and they turn you into an atheist. Is there any belief you have that is your own?
(30-12-2011 01:58 AM)Filox Wrote:  Hahaha, good one. No, I'm fine like this, do not be worried about me, it's gonna be OK, really. Look, even if what you say is true, all my friends are gonna be in Hell, I'll have no one in Haven, so I don't see the point in it. Not now, anyhow.

You'd have God in heaven, and all a person wants is God. All pleasures are surrogates for God. We seek them, because we think they are God. All pleasure is in God. He is the flame. We are the moth. We just don't realize it.

And that's why, Filox, we can't be friends. Because a friend would lay off all this talk and respect your point of view. A friend would live and let live. A friend wouldn't want to offend you, because then they couldn't get your friendship in return.

I am not your friend. I want to disturb you. I want to offend you. I want to destroy your belief system. Can you understand what I'm trying to say to you?

Quote:And these reputation things are just something to do here on the forum, nobody will ban you from here, and the rep doesn't mean anything, not anything important at least. You are free to roam this forum forever, we not like the rest of the stupid forums that can't handle you, so they just ban you.

Smile

That's good. I'm glad to hear that. I've never understood it, in any religious forum. They shoot themselves in the foot when they ban people for anything other than spam or obscenity.

Quote:Don't you worry about our conversations, I will continue them. You see how atheist and Christian can hang out and be at least Internet friends, even if we 100% disagree?

Nope. And if you want to walk, walk. I like our conversations, but I always have an agenda, which is to save you from hell. But like Morpheus would say, I can only show you the door; you have to walk through it. You're the one they're fighting in heaven for; I'm already there. So, the proper relationship between atheists and Christians is one of contention and strife. It has to be that way, or the Christian isn't being a Christian.

Good luck.
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02-01-2012, 11:46 AM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
(02-01-2012 03:27 AM)Egor Wrote:  Evidence can get you close, but God is far to big for us to hold in our minds, so there always comes a point in the progression of evidence where one has to step over with faith. There's always a point where one has to say, "I can't get any closer, but I'm close enough. Bang. This is what I believe. This is what I'm going to believe, and here I stand.
True, God can be neither proven or disproven. But in my view, the evidence is overwhelmingly pointing to the absence of a god, and the evidence for a god having in some way inspired or dictated the bible is quite to the contrary. It's how the evidence is examined that brings the examiner to the conclusion. If someone starts with "I think god is real and the bible is written with his divine inspiration, then they may conclude, (not always, by the way) that yes, it is an awesome book and holds all the answers to life's questions on living and morality. They conclude this because they want it to be true. I examine the bible and see that slavery was not only not condemned, but rules are set forth on how to treat one's slaves. That, to me, is evidence that the bible was written by men, most likely slaveowners, to justify their possession of people for personal gain. That's just one example. The mass murder, war, smiting, stoning, etc. just keeps the evidence moving away from divine inspiration, in my opinion. So, realizing that god will never be proven one way or another, the evidence, or proof, leads me to the conclusion that the bible was not inspired by a god, was written by men of the time, and religion, in general, separates people into groups that are intolerant of other people's beliefs.

(02-01-2012 03:27 AM)Egor Wrote:  then you go to college and they turn you into an atheist.

Again, the evidence is what turned me into an atheist. We didn't have forums and blogs back then. I thought a lot about my beliefs, and researched and dug for answers. There was a long time of fence sitting for me, primarily because of the fear of going to hell. As you can tell from this forum, a lot of atheists are former believers, and I'm guessing they came to that belief based on the evidence; the same book I read, the same book you read.

"Religion is the binky of a teen-age humanity."
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02-01-2012, 11:55 AM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
(02-01-2012 03:27 AM)Egor Wrote:  A friend wouldn't want to offend you, because then they couldn't get your friendship in return.

I don't really think it's working that way. A friend wouldn't mind offending his friend if he was doing something wrong. That's just how I see friendship.

And I feel like all you ever want to do on this forum is preaching. You don't really 'debate' or explain anything.

Today I was wondering about "god works in mysterious ways" thing. Have you ever used this in your conversations with nontheists? If yes, don't you that your way of understanding god may be wrong, that the god is just deceiving you, making you think he is all good etc.?
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02-01-2012, 05:29 PM
 
RE: Egor's Proof of God
(02-01-2012 11:46 AM)yosemitesam Wrote:  True, God can be neither proven or disproven. But in my view, the evidence is overwhelmingly pointing to the absence of a god, and the evidence for a god having in some way inspired or dictated the bible is quite to the contrary. It's how the evidence is examined that brings the examiner to the conclusion. If someone starts with "I think god is real and the bible is written with his divine inspiration, then they may conclude, (not always, by the way) that yes, it is an awesome book and holds all the answers to life's questions on living and morality. They conclude this because they want it to be true. I examine the bible and see that slavery was not only not condemned, but rules are set forth on how to treat one's slaves. That, to me, is evidence that the bible was written by men, most likely slaveowners, to justify their possession of people for personal gain. That's just one example. The mass murder, war, smiting, stoning, etc. just keeps the evidence moving away from divine inspiration, in my opinion. So, realizing that god will never be proven one way or another, the evidence, or proof, leads me to the conclusion that the bible was not inspired by a god, was written by men of the time, and religion, in general, separates people into groups that are intolerant of other people's beliefs.

You have no business worrying about the Bible while you’re an atheist. Or are you really so simple that you think God is contained in that book? Before you decide what you will believe or not believe about the Bible, you have to believe there’s a God to begin with. Then you have to answer some other very fundamental questions before you worry about the Bible—if you ever worry about the Bible. Questions like, “Does God hear me when I pray? Is this God’s voice or only my own that I hear back? Does God care about “me” or is He only a deistic type of God, etc.

First you have to come to some conclusion that God exists. Then you have fundamental religious issues that only you and God can settle. Then you can worry about what kind of Christian to be. Remember, the thief on the Christ was the simplest form of Christian, and he had no bible, no church, no baptism, no sacraments, no nothing. Just confession, repentance, and faith in Christ.

Quote:Again, the evidence is what turned me into an atheist. We didn't have forums and blogs back then. I thought a lot about my beliefs, and researched and dug for answers. There was a long time of fence sitting for me, primarily because of the fear of going to hell. As you can tell from this forum, a lot of atheists are former believers, and I'm guessing they came to that belief based on the evidence; the same book I read, the same book you read.

I’m sorry, what evidence is there that there is no God? There’s all kinds of evidence both natural and mental that suggests there is a God, but what evidence says there is no God?

(02-01-2012 11:55 AM)imralav Wrote:  I don't really think it's working that way. A friend wouldn't mind offending his friend if he was doing something wrong. That's just how I see friendship.

And I feel like all you ever want to do on this forum is preaching. You don't really 'debate' or explain anything.

Whatever. Preaching, discussing, expressing my opinions, whatever you want to call it.

Quote:Today I was wondering about "god works in mysterious ways" thing. Have you ever used this in your conversations with nontheists? If yes, don't you that your way of understanding god may be wrong, that the god is just deceiving you, making you think he is all good etc.?

God does work in mysterious ways. That’s the beauty of watching His plan unfold, especially in our personal lives.

As for God deceiving me, it’s irrelevant. I am the creature; He is the creator. He sustains my existence at every moment. He reveals all that I know or have ever come to know. He is the author of truth. I don’t belong to myself; I belong to Him. He is all-powerful, so whatever He does, He does. What he says is good, is my morality. He is my deepest longing, and I am captivated by His mystery, a moth to the flame. So, what difference does it make if He’s deceiving me? What am I going to do? Protest?
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02-01-2012, 07:11 PM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
This is my worry, religion has indoctrinated people so deeply that it makes them completely forget about humans entirely and only focuses on a fallacy. I read your blog and you hate Atheist's. Its a very Christian thing to say and I'm not surprised at all about it. I've studied history, and religion usually coincides with some of the worst human events in history. From the Spanish Inquisition to the idiotic Crusades. Its unfortunate that something that is apparently supposed to be sided with love and happiness uses the word 'Hate' and 'War' so often.

You say you dislike what atheism has done to our society. Done what? Tell me, I'm intensely intrigued. I believe its made us think for ourselves. Made us understand we don't have to live for a lie anymore. Made us stop hating, like religion has done so often, and live with one another. People believe you need God to be moral. If your honestly that dimwitted to punch an infant without the morality of God, something is wrong with you. I also found it hilarious you decided to say: a blog for Christian warriors, because it befits your purpose. Kill and wipeout all others who don't believe. Its perfect to what Christianity has become now. A cult determined to take over. I saw what you had to say about the invasion of Iraq. I liked that we rid the country of a dictator but you say we are at war with with islam. Thats sickening and sad. Not all Muslims are bad. Just like Islam has radicals, the Christian faith has people like you slandering and destroying their name and making it easier for atheists to point out the idiocies and faults of religion.

The only future I can see with your belief is one of a religious war and nuclear apocalypse. The future I hope for is of one day generations from now. Children in classrooms will be reading of Christian Theology and how it stunted our growth in making a better society. Religion is losing the war on all fronts. If this continues hopefully the latter future will be true.
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02-01-2012, 07:55 PM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
(02-01-2012 05:29 PM)Egor Wrote:  You have no business worrying about the Bible while you’re an atheist.

Wow. Wasn't expecting that one. So many things I could say...

Is the bible the word of god or not? Either literally or metaphorically? Where do you get your moral code from? If someone came to you and said, "I think I believe god exists", don't you then point them to the bible?

(02-01-2012 05:29 PM)Egor Wrote:  First you have to come to some conclusion that God exists.

So this is precisely my point. You are saying that your mind is made up already, before you even get to the bible. By that time, whatever you read will be with god glasses on. No wonder believers can read it and think it's rational...

I have come to the conclusion that god doesn't exist based on my experiences and what I see in the known world. You have come to the conclusion that god does exist based on your experiences and what you see in the known world. I believe the bible is man made, with no divine intervention whatsoever. You believe to the contrary. But I don't tell you you're going to be eternally punished, tortured or whatever. I wouldn't want that for anybody. But you feel you must tell me these things. Not a very pleasant way to have to live, if you ask me.

"Religion is the binky of a teen-age humanity."
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02-01-2012, 08:07 PM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
(02-01-2012 05:29 PM)Egor Wrote:  
Quote:Again, the evidence is what turned me into an atheist. We didn't have forums and blogs back then. I thought a lot about my beliefs, and researched and dug for answers. There was a long time of fence sitting for me, primarily because of the fear of going to hell. As you can tell from this forum, a lot of atheists are former believers, and I'm guessing they came to that belief based on the evidence; the same book I read, the same book you read.

I’m sorry, what evidence is there that there is no God? There’s all kinds of evidence both natural and mental that suggests there is a God, but what evidence says there is no God?

The world looks exactly as it would if there were no God. Reality can be largely explained without the God hypothesis.
There is no objective evidence of the existence of any gods. What is mental evidence? Your (or anyone's) internal mental states do not constitute evidence.


I am mostly impatient with Bible bashing, because it can not possibly be the inspired word since there are no gods.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-01-2012, 09:28 PM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
(02-01-2012 08:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  The world looks exactly as it would if there were no God.

That's ridiculous. An omnipotent God could create the world exactly as it is right now.

James 1:27
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world"

"Atheists express their rage against God although in their view He does not exist." C.S. Lewis
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02-01-2012, 10:03 PM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
(02-01-2012 05:29 PM)Egor Wrote:  I’m sorry, what evidence is there that there is no God? There’s all kinds of evidence both natural and mental that suggests there is a God, but what evidence says there is no God?
I cannot prove to you that a god does not exist.I can however prove that your god is not holy, perfect or "Love", as he claims to be. All you need do is study your book.Your god is a killer,and guilty of severe crimes against humanity.

Something, Or Someone Is Really Out There!
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