Egor's Proof of God
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21-12-2011, 12:57 AM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
I sure hit the like button a lot on this thread. Kind of like throwin' out a few amens. TESTIFY people!

Oh, and so Eyegor, this seems to me to be the whole "If a tree falls in a forest" deal. You've almost convinced me. Only one question remains: What is the sound of one hand clapping?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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21-12-2011, 01:14 AM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
(21-12-2011 12:57 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  I sure hit the like button a lot on this thread. Kind of like throwin' out a few amens. TESTIFY people!

Oh, and so Eyegor, this seems to me to be the whole "If a tree falls in a forest" deal. You've almost convinced me. Only one question remains: What is the sound of one hand clapping?

You can actually do this if you're sufficiently flexible - just relax your hand and shake violently... I can get my fingers to make contact with my wrist and make a weak clapping sound.

Egor? Do you feel answered? I think we've done a decent job of pointing out that this argument is not a proof... feel free to pick holes in any of our replies.
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21-12-2011, 01:35 AM
 
RE: Egor's Proof of God
(20-12-2011 02:05 PM)Seasbury Wrote:  But let me ask you - are you a biblical literalist or interpretist? Is the bible God's definitive word on the world and your moral compass or is just a guidebook full of good parables upon which one should try to live a life by?

Sorry. You called Jesus, Jebus. So, no response. And I’m not mad. I like it when I don’t have to respond, because as it is, as you can see, there are a lot of others who want a response, and I only have so many years left to live.

Hasta Luego.

(20-12-2011 02:08 PM)Malleus Wrote:  I think I have an idea why nobody has debunked you yet. You ignore people like me, you pick and choose what you want to answer, you make no sense when you do and you defend against attacks on your religious views by insulting people personally.

You say that like it’s a bad thing.

Quote:You do that some more and, before you know it, people hover their mouse button over the Reply button and then think "why bother?" You did this before didn't you?

Yeah, right, eventually people will just ignore me. We’ll see about that.

(20-12-2011 02:57 PM)morondog Wrote:  Egor...
The reason people get angry is because you push buttons. You came across very brash...

So?

Quote:Just because you can't imagine things existing without an observer does not mean that an observer is necessary.

No, that’s just it. Think of an apple in a void that you are observing. Take away everything that is an object of consciousness (color, taste, texture, etc.) and then take yourself away by not thinking about it. The apple will cease to exist. If you are still thinking its there in the void without you present, then you have failed to remove the last conscious element—your thoughts of it.

I know, right now I’m blowing your mind. ( to quote tech support in “Vanilla Sky”)


Quote:Even if I grant you your Observer God who observes the universe into being... there is no link to angry God who hates atheism and wants to torture those who dislike him, who writes obscure literature for his chosen ones to find.

So, start with the Observer God and make your own religion from there. You might find you’re right in line with Jesus Christ once you read the Gospels from your own perspective.

Quote:You not only posit this, you add that *you* yourself have your *very own* brand of crazy, where only the gospels are taken as true - possessed pigs and all - and the rest is just "commentary".

I have my reasons and they’re very solid. By the way, just as a side comment, you’re supposed to examine the pigs behavior very carefully when you read that story. The whole thing is a kind of hidden parable. Jesus made a lot of hidden parables, riddles and such to be figured out by the Elect. And he plainly stated in the Gospels that he does exactly that. And do you know why? So that the unworthy wouldn’t figure them out and then turn and be saved. Maybe you’re one of those unworthy ones. Who knows?

(20-12-2011 03:22 PM)Ben Wrote:  What observed God into being?

I’m referring in my argument to the physical universe. God has existence as an attribute of His nature.

(20-12-2011 03:57 PM)kim Wrote:  
(20-12-2011 01:55 PM)Egor Wrote:  All things that exist have meaning.

Meaning to whom?

Define meaning and then proceed.

A reason for being.

(20-12-2011 04:11 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Why does something have to be observed to exist?

Because existence requires observation.

(20-12-2011 04:18 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I mean... doesn't this contradict your argument for God... and faith? God isn't observable, so by what you just said, God doesn't exist... right?

And, isn't the belief of God based on faith... and, doesn't your above statement debunk the very belief of faith?

No.

(21-12-2011 01:14 AM)morondog Wrote:  Oh, and so Eyegor, this seems to me to be the whole "If a tree falls in a forest" deal. You've almost convinced me. Only one question remains: What is the sound of one hand clapping?

I think that one was answered on an episode of “The Simpsons.”
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21-12-2011, 01:48 AM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
Maybe I should just say: this argument is not proof for me and leave it at that. You seem happy that it's proof for you.

I see no need to burden myself with the gospels or the bible. I have a good life without any of that. I have read the bible many times, admittedly not from your strange perspective. But, my friend, as a freshly minted prophet, look elsewhere for followers. We may be hopelessly deluded from your point of view, but all of us have put a lot of effort into understanding this stuff. You're just the latest in a long line of people saying "if you read it in this light and from this angle it almost looks like a reasonable belief".

Your arguments are not new or convincing. If that's because of hopeless amounts of bias on our part... well, such is life. I think it's more because they *are not* sound. You can't see that though... It's ironic that I find myself saying this, because that exact accusation (of not being able to see or admit the flaws in my own argument) has been many times leveled at me, and I have never felt it justified. But that is the honest reason why I will no longer debate with you. Your ideas are fixed, you are right always (in your estimation), any challenge can be dismissed as the other not understanding or being rude or by advising the guy to read the gospels with an open mind. Sorry. Doesn't cut the mustard with me.
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21-12-2011, 02:00 AM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
(21-12-2011 01:35 AM)Egor Wrote:  I think that one was answered on an episode of “The Simpsons.”

You want to play The Simpsons Theology Game? I'm your huckleberry:




It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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21-12-2011, 02:12 AM (This post was last modified: 21-12-2011 02:16 AM by Starcrash.)
RE: Egor's Proof of God
(20-12-2011 01:55 PM)Egor Wrote:  My proof of God is this:

Existence requires observation. Since the universe had to exist before there was physical life in it that could observe it, there must have been a non-physical consciousness observing it. That consciousness would be the attribute of God. Therefore, God exists.

Man, I didn't want to even answer. When I first saw your post I was so sure that you were a "Poe", but the fact that you keep responding assures me that you're serious.

Simply asserting that something is true doesn't make it true. Your personal certainty is as worthless to me as mine is to you. Your first premise is that existence requires observation, but that's never been proven and you didn't attempt to prove it here. To do so would require showing us how something ceases to exist by no longer being observed, or by demonstrating how something "unobserved" doesn't exist, but you've made both points impossible to prove by supposing that the observer can be a God who sees all.

If I asserted "Existence requires being made up of matter", I'd be just assuming something based on what I know from personal experience, but that doesn't make it true. However, if I wanted to simply accept that it's true because it proves my point (as you have), then allow me to make the following proof that God doesn't exist.

Existence requires being made up of matter. God could not predate the existence of matter, because nothing could. If He didn't create matter, then there is no "creator". Therefore, God does not exist.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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21-12-2011, 03:08 AM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
Egor's post and reply if full of circular logic and the dismissal of legitimate questions for very lame excuses.


Malleus: I think I have an idea why nobody has debunked you yet. You ignore people like me, you pick and choose what you want to answer, you make no sense when you do and you defend against attacks on your religious views by insulting people personally.
Egor:You say that like it’s a bad thing.

it is a bad thing. why don't you even try to justify why u dont answer questions and statements that are there to prove you wrong?
is that not why you're here? a debate is being open to the possibility of the other side being right, given that the evidence supports it.
I have yet to see you present any solid evidence at alll, all you do is try to poke wholes at our arguments and retorts with replies like the quote above and circular reasoning like this one.

Why does something have to be observed to exist?
Because existence requires observation.

Why do you pick your nose to get an erection?
Because getting an erection requires nose picking.

that's circular reasoning, and that entire statement is fallacious.

You see, even if i did believe that and had evidence for it, its not a very convincing argument now is it?
the correct way to go about it is:
Nose picking brings an erection because the erectile tissue in the nose are related neurologically with the penis.
an outrageos example i agree but bear with me here.
then we would go about the deconstruction or your claim by looking at the evidence you provided,
who did the studies and experiments, how were they reviewed, were they accepted or challenged, the mothods used etc.

u didnt do anything intellectual of the sort, u just stuck your fingers in your ears and kept saying,
"Because existence requires observation." without even attempting to prove it or citing a study that did.

meanwhile, we have a wide array of evidence disproving the bible; evolution for example, or that the great flood didnt leave any
geological evidence, all backed by real research and studies.

It is you who claims that god exsists and therefore the burdain is on you to prove him if you want to convince us,
like a said before, pseudo-philosophy isnt convincing evidence and you sure have you're work cut out for you if you want to bring any real evidence to the table.
if on the other hand, no amount of evidence or convincing will change you're mind, then stop trolling -.-

"Yeah, good idea. Make them buy your invisible apple. Insist that they do. Market it properly and don't stop until they pay for it." -Malleus
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21-12-2011, 03:10 AM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
(21-12-2011 03:08 AM)Jackrabbit Wrote:  Why do you pick your nose to get an erection?
Because getting an erection requires nose picking.

Oh, so THAT'S why my mom told me to stop picking my nose. Sad

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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21-12-2011, 03:18 AM
RE: Egor's Proof of God
(21-12-2011 03:10 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(21-12-2011 03:08 AM)Jackrabbit Wrote:  Why do you pick your nose to get an erection?
Because getting an erection requires nose picking.

Oh, so THAT'S why my mom told me to stop picking my nose. Sad

LOL
http://myfacewhen.com/32/

"Yeah, good idea. Make them buy your invisible apple. Insist that they do. Market it properly and don't stop until they pay for it." -Malleus
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21-12-2011, 04:05 AM (This post was last modified: 27-12-2011 10:17 PM by MasterRottweiler.)
RE: Egor's Proof of God
Ok, I will give it a try.... Big Grin

(20-12-2011 01:55 PM)Egor Wrote:  Existence requires observation.

I think first premise is false, existence is a priori to observation, for something to be existing it must require to exist before we can observe it, even if we have a conceptual base of X does not mean that X must exist outside the realm of imagination, because we have a conceptual base and a physical base, at least I think my objection is valid from a physycalist perspective like Andrew Melnyk's or Daniel Stoljar's physicalism.

(20-12-2011 01:55 PM)Egor Wrote:  Since the universe had to exist before there was physical life in it that could observe it, there must have been a non-physical consciousness observing it.

That's begging the question, please demonstrate that "non physical life" exists in the first place, it is a baseless asertion, also demonstrate that a counsciousness is not dependant on a physical brain because all the evidence points to the contrary, meaning; no physical brain = no counsciousness.

(20-12-2011 01:55 PM)Egor Wrote:  Therefore, God exists.

I cannot follow your conclusion if I don't accept your premises.

"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”
-Georgia Harkness.

"La fe es patrimonio de los pendejos. (Faith is patrimony of the dumbfucks)."
-Diego Rivera
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