Egypt
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11-02-2011, 11:36 AM
Egypt
Mubarak has resigned. What an absolutely amazing turn of events. A people who throughout history have been ruled by kings, dictators and foreign powers have been able to overthrow an illegitimate and oppressive tyrant without firing a shot or resorting to violence. Quite possibly the most significant political event in my life time.

I have no idea what will happen next but my gut reaction is that this is a very, very good thing and possibly a major turning point for the better for that region.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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11-02-2011, 05:15 PM
RE: Egypt
I really hope what happens next is good. Mubarak from what I know has been pretty horrible, and as you said Egypt is a land where tyranny has reigned for known history. I hope all goes well, the egyptians are a people who really need a break from the world of greed and delusion.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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12-02-2011, 12:52 AM
RE: Egypt
Actually people in Egypt don't get democracy the same way we do.
Most still have a backwards mentality of society and despite that one dictator has fallen a much worse one may arise.
Some fight against Sharia Law in Iran and in Egypt they fight for Sharia law.

77% of Egyptians support stoning to death for adultery :
Quote:and 77% in Egypt favor making this type of punishment the law in their countries,
http://pewresearch.org/databank/dailynum...berID=1184

Also , see their stance on some lovely groups like Hezbollah and Al-queda :
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-...hezbollah/

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

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12-02-2011, 10:57 AM
RE: Egypt
(12-02-2011 12:52 AM)gaglamesh731 Wrote:  Actually people in Egypt don't get democracy the same way we do.

I disagree. Just because you don't implement a society based on the more enlightened views of the west does not mean you do not understand the the point of self determination. The west has long made the mistake of equating "democracy" with "doing it the way we want it done".

That said, I sincerely hope that the Islamists do not seize the day here but given that they seem to be a minority in Egypt I think that is unlikely (although they will certainly be represented in any new government - the same way the Fundamentalists have a voice in our government here in the US). There is no way of knowing what's going to happen next, but I believe that when you have a government with a true mandate from the people you are fare more likely to have an equitable sharing of power and a protection of basic human rights.

There is not one democratic country in the world that has voted to put a theocracy in power and the idea that Muslims are not capable of understanding the issues or deciding what is best for themselves is just basic bigotry.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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12-02-2011, 04:08 PM
RE: Egypt
How many truly democratic countries in the middle east can you name BnW ?
Besides Israel ?
That's what worries me , that we think they're changing for the better because that's what we in the west assume , and we just may end up with another Saddam or Ahmadinejad ?!

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

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12-02-2011, 05:01 PM
RE: Egypt
Well Galgamesh how many times have countries in the Middle East had the chance with all the wars and insurgents? Yes they have some beliefs that are sickening, did horrible things, and still might. This does not mean gay people won't be imprisoned or any such things, but as long as they maintain the will of the people and governing, they will be able to learn from their mistakes. Egyptians have never had the chance to make their own statements so I'm sure they're going to fight very hard against being opressed again. Remember most of the previous Middle Eastern dictactors had ties to foreign governments that supported their insurgency.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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12-02-2011, 10:33 PM
RE: Egypt
Although I tend to fall into the pessimist view on issues such as this, I agree with Lilith. The Egyptians have just released themselves, and with us watching over the process, a democracy will surely take hold. You need to remember that one of our goals (as Americans) is to make Democracy possible.
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13-02-2011, 07:15 AM
RE: Egypt
Iran released itself from a western puppet leader and now it's one of the most strict Sharia enforcing countries. I don't mind the fact that governments change and that people get a voice, my fear is which people get the louder voice and what will that voice say ?
Also , it doesn't matter who comes to power, interests both political and economic will soon show their ugly head and the country's policy may be sidetracked from what the initial protesters wanted.

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

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13-02-2011, 10:37 AM
RE: Egypt
(12-02-2011 10:33 PM)TheKetola Wrote:  Although I tend to fall into the pessimist view on issues such as this, I agree with Lilith. The Egyptians have just released themselves, and with us watching over the process, a democracy will surely take hold. You need to remember that one of our goals (as Americans) is to make Democracy possible.

Sorry, but this made me just shiver. I know you didn't mean it this way but the notion that they need us "watching over the process" for democracy to take hold is, at worst racist and at best ignorant. People outside the US do not need us to thrive or exercise their rights of self determination. And, it's not our place to do so. The country was established on the concept of "mind your own damn business" and I long for the day when we get back to that.

Second, the idea that one of our goals is "to make Democracy possible" is just laughable. We supported Mubarak. We support the House of Saud, the monarchy in Jordan, the government of Israel that suppresses the rights of 40% of their population, and go to war in Iraq and claim our goal is to make Democracy possible? That is a completely and utterly laughable position. We support democracy where it conforms to our needs and our economic goals and otherwise we support kings and dictators who do our bidding and loot every penny their countries have while their populations starve or barely get by.

gaglamesh - there is not one real democracy in the middleast. Israel is the closest but given the fact that it's an almost apartheid system it's tough to call it a true democracy. And, every other election in the region has been basically determined before any vote was cast. Right now we are in completely uncharted waters. Who knows what is going to happen? I certainly don't. But, Egypt overthrow a dictator in 3 weeks without firing a shot or having rampant bloodshed. Can you name another revolution that went that fast or that peacefully? That is the essence of freedom and democracy, people voicing their views and making a change. I just don't see how it can be a bad thing. Sure, what happens next can be bad, but we have to wait and see.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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13-02-2011, 01:52 PM
RE: Egypt
Wonderful statements BnW, that is the essence of where the Middle East is in the world today. Once oil became something important that the Middle East had they became oppressed in the same way Africa is oppressed. When the 9/11 bombing happened my thought was about time and then I wanted everyone to calm down a little and look at the fact it was a lot less death than in any other part of the world. The Middle east has long had in-fighting when their real controversies came from the western world which in many cases aided them in continuing to fight amongst themselves.

I would hate if America had any say in what happens to Egypt at this point, because that gets them no further towards freedom than Mubarak. Africa and the Middle east have been the western worlds slaves well after slavery. They just stopped importing them, and instead demanded resources in cruel ways by guiding the governments to aid their cause.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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