Egypt
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13-02-2011, 03:31 PM
RE: Egypt
To be honest , the "revolution" in Egypt has been peaceful up to this point but I'm more worried about what follows. I don't deny change was peaceful but I'm worried that the bloodshed may come after the change.
Calling Israel an apartheid system is a joke BnW - in case you haven't noticed not all jews are exactly Aryan supermen , a reason they were victims of genocide in Europe.
Israel is however a rogue state : http://www.aish.com/jw/me/108390089.html (an interesting lecture)

The in-fighting in the area isn't always fueled by the west and it's interests. See the conflict between the Shia and Sunni factions. IF you remember the leaked cables Saudi Arabia wants Iran of the map.Iran helped the US in Afghanistan with the Northern Alliance.Nothing is clear cut and religious divergence is a huge factor.

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13-02-2011, 07:23 PM
RE: Egypt
(13-02-2011 03:31 PM)gaglamesh731 Wrote:  Calling Israel an apartheid system is a joke BnW - in case you haven't noticed not all jews are exactly Aryan supermen , a reason they were victims of genocide in Europe.

I'm not sure what the past has to do with their current government and I don't get the "Aryan supermen" comment at all. Apartheid was South African, not the Nazis. And, the fact is that you have a large percentage (although a minority percentage) of their population with absolutely no rights. There are Palestinians who are Israeli citizens who do not have the same rights as Jewish citizens.

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14-02-2011, 01:33 AM
RE: Egypt
I know what apartheid is , it's racial discrimination and since not all jews are white it doesn't fit.
The fact that palestinians are treated as second class citizens is wrong , but xenophobia or religious discrimination is not the same as racial discrimination.
Semantics aside , I know discrimination takes place in Israel but at the same time pro arab political parties hold seats in the Knesset(parliament) , so I have mixed feelings about this.

On one side you have the "Entry Law" that clearly points to Palestinians and discriminates to "prevent terrorism", on the other the law was attacked in Supreme Court in H.C.J. cases 7052/03 7102/03 Adalah and others v. The Minister of the Interior.
A while back a special commitee was formed to offer advice and aid to arabs : http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/200...20-%20Febr

I don't see this that clean cut , not all groups of people hold the same view in Israel and based on their political influence you will either see settling, housing demolition and laws pertaining to arabs only OR a genuine attempt at peace , understanding and a search for a diplomatic solution.

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14-02-2011, 06:35 AM
RE: Egypt
(14-02-2011 01:33 AM)gaglamesh731 Wrote:  The fact that palestinians are treated as second class citizens is wrong , but xenophobia or religious discrimination is not the same as racial discrimination.

Why not?

(14-02-2011 01:33 AM)gaglamesh731 Wrote:  I don't see this that clean cut , not all groups of people hold the same view in Israel and based on their political influence you will either see settling, housing demolition and laws pertaining to arabs only OR a genuine attempt at peace , understanding and a search for a diplomatic solution.

I agree it's not clean cut. I also agree that not everyone in Israel has the same politics or beliefs on all of this. If they did, then elections would probably be unnecessary. And, finally, I don't think the Jews are completely wrong for not opening up the country to the Palestinians given the fact that they are still getting hit with rockets every now and then. They have a right to survive as well.

However, the indisputable fact is that at some point in the very near future the Jews are going to become a minority in their own country, and a political system that is based on repressing a large minority that is soon to become a majority is not only immoral but is simply not sustainable. The Israeli's will be in a constant state of civil war and it won't take long before they lose whatever limited support they have in the world (with the US possibly being the one hold out no matter what happens).

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16-02-2011, 03:08 AM
RE: Egypt
Quote:I agree it's not clean cut. I also agree that not everyone in Israel has the same politics or beliefs on all of this. If they did, then elections would probably be unnecessary. And, finally, I don't think the Jews are completely wrong for not opening up the country to the Palestinians given the fact that they are still getting hit with rockets every now and then. They have a right to survive as well.

Thank you for stating that.A very large scale of people in the world are denying the fact we have the right of self defense as well.

Quote:However, the indisputable fact is that at some point in the very near future the Jews are going to become a minority in their own country, and a political system that is based on repressing a large minority that is soon to become a majority is not only immoral but is simply not sustainable. The Israeli's will be in a constant state of civil war and it won't take long before they lose whatever limited support they have in the world (with the US possibly being the one hold out no matter what happens).

So let's talk when this actually happen, will you? Right now Israel's Jewish population is 80%, the rest is variety of Arabs, Bedouins, Druze, Circassian, Samarians and Bahai's.
You are saying we're aparthide now because you think that in the future the Jewish population in israel will be a minority.
And btw, against all what the rest of the world is thinking- the growth statistics of the Jewish population in Israel are higher then those of the Arabs in Israel. So your assumption is incorrect from its very basis.
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16-02-2011, 04:44 AM
RE: Egypt
(14-02-2011 06:35 AM)BnW Wrote:  
(14-02-2011 01:33 AM)gaglamesh731 Wrote:  The fact that palestinians are treated as second class citizens is wrong , but xenophobia or religious discrimination is not the same as racial discrimination.
Why not?

I was arguing more a matter of semantics rather than gravity.
Telling people they are racist when they accept people of different skin color is wrong.
This however doesn't excuse xenophobia or deny it's gravity.
Sorry if I wasn't clear.

As for the political system I've seen some conflicting views , some bills aimed against palestinians fitting in , others aimed at helping them fit in.So I'm kind of confused - you said you are a lawyer , help me cut through the bureaucracy.

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16-02-2011, 09:28 AM
 
RE: Egypt
(12-02-2011 10:33 PM)TheKetola Wrote:  Although I tend to fall into the pessimist view on issues such as this, I agree with Lilith. The Egyptians have just released themselves, and with us watching over the process, a democracy will surely take hold. You need to remember that one of our goals (as Americans) is to make Democracy possible.

100% disagree with that statement. It is NOT the goal of America or its people to force democracy on anyone. If said country decides to go with our form of GOV then go for it. But, in no way is our Goal to make everyone like us. If they the people of a said country decision to go with Socialism, they its up to them not the US.
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16-02-2011, 01:12 PM
RE: Egypt
I think he meant democracy in a loose way , so that people can vote their leaders into power even if said leaders are capitalist/fascist/socialist -whatever.
I could have misunderstood.

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16-02-2011, 09:11 PM (This post was last modified: 16-02-2011 09:20 PM by TheKetola.)
RE: Egypt
Quote:Sorry, but this made me just shiver. I know you didn't mean it this way but the notion that they need us "watching over the process" for democracy to take hold is, at worst racist and at best ignorant. People outside the US do not need us to thrive or exercise their rights of self determination. And, it's not our place to do so. The country was established on the concept of "mind your own damn business" and I long for the day when we get back to that.

I am stating what our country will do based on the current trend, in order to not seem like a hypocrite Obama will support the institution of Democracy in the area, otherwise it would just be bad politics. I don't necessarily agree with this, but it seems obvious to me that this is what will end up happening.


Quote:Second, the idea that one of our goals is "to make Democracy possible" is just laughable. We supported Mubarak. We support the House of Saud, the monarchy in Jordan, the government of Israel that suppresses the rights of 40% of their population, and go to war in Iraq and claim our goal is to make Democracy possible? That is a completely and utterly laughable position. We support democracy where it conforms to our needs and our economic goals and otherwise we support kings and dictators who do our bidding and loot every penny their countries have while their populations starve or barely get by.

WE aren't the ones who completely ignore the international goals of the US and the UN, it is the politicians who win there way to office instead of earning their way there. They have not proven they are fit for the job, all they have proven is that they can convince the American people.
(16-02-2011 09:28 AM)AnthraxFan93 Wrote:  
(12-02-2011 10:33 PM)TheKetola Wrote:  Although I tend to fall into the pessimist view on issues such as this, I agree with Lilith. The Egyptians have just released themselves, and with us watching over the process, a democracy will surely take hold. You need to remember that one of our goals (as Americans) is to make Democracy possible.

100% disagree with that statement. It is NOT the goal of America or its people to force democracy on anyone. If said country decides to go with our form of GOV then go for it. But, in no way is our Goal to make everyone like us. If they the people of a said country decision to go with Socialism, they its up to them not the US.

Part of our international goals (unless I am outdated) is to make the world safe for democracy, which could mean many things and is a really broad statement. It could mean going to war with Iraq and forcing the institution of Democracy there, it could mean helping Egypt establish their democracy since they chose to revolt against their current form in a peaceful revolution, or it could simply mean to stop anyone who opresses the idea of democracy (so lets say Iran says "I'm going to bomb -Insert country name- if they become democratic", then we would be forced to step in under that definition). Or you could go to the extreme end and say we destroy every non-democracy, but I don't think that consititutes the same meaning as the word "safe".
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17-02-2011, 04:06 AM
RE: Egypt
Related to this thread , you guys have noticed that more countries in the middle east have flared up , right ?

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