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25-02-2011, 08:42 AM
RE: Egypt
(22-02-2011 02:29 AM)shiranl Wrote:  I don't say the situation in Israel is perfect, but it is way better than what you describe and a hell lot of better than the situation in the Arabs countries.

I don't think there is any doubt the situation is better than in the Arab countries, but I don't think that is really the point. None of those countries aspires to be a democracy. They are all basically monarchies or dictatorships.

(22-02-2011 02:29 AM)shiranl Wrote:  Israel has a lot to be improved, no doubt about that, but which country doesn't need to be improved? Give me one name of one country which trits to its minorities completely equal. There is no such thing, weather it be complete discrimination from the government and the society or minimal discrimination like in job employments.
Don't use the term if you are not completely convinced about what is going on here because it is just contributes more to the delegitimization of my country.

You are correct, no country is completely fair in this. However, the situation in Israel with the Palestinians is very different then what you have any place in the world. Israeli Arabs are citizens of Israel, have the right to vote, etc. but the Palestinians in the territories are kind of in a state of non-existence and seem to have zero rights in Israeli society.

(22-02-2011 02:29 AM)shiranl Wrote:  In the conditions Israel established, in the conditions Israel had survived for almost 63 years, in the conditions of the variety Israel's society has- Israel has manneged to perserve a democracy in almost unpossible situation- constent war, neighboring countries which doesn't really sympathies our existence, and with a huge vareity in our society- only in the Jewish population we have tens of different ethnicities- all those things combine create possible dictatorship and unpossible democracy. Instead, we accepted the democarcy on May 14th, 1948- as far as my knowledge goes, we are the only democracy who didn't had to fight to get the democracy- and we still are.

Yes, Israel has been in an almost constant state of war since its inception. It hasn't faced any real threats since 1973 or so, but it definitely has been attacked. However, what we are talking about here is the specific situation regarding the Palestinians. And, that situation is probably creating more risks for Israel's long term security then anything else, because it is a wedge issue all over the region. It's a shame Arafat backed out of the deal at Davos in 2000 so he could further line his pockets at the expense of his own people, but shit happens.

On a side note, I sometimes hope there is a hell so slime like Arafat can suffer for eternity. The man was evil.

(22-02-2011 02:29 AM)shiranl Wrote:  After all that- I honestly think Israel is over judged. By you and by most of the world.

So stop crying about the "suffer" the Arabs have here (which, if you ask them, they prefer the "suffer" here than the suffer in their homelands) and start crying about the real suffer, like the one in Darfur (and again- Israel is the only country which accept those refugees within its borders, like we don't have other problems to dill with....)

Check your sources again. .

I agree with you that Israel gets far too much attention and negative press vs. some other parts of the world and even other in the region. But, the idea that the Palestinians are not suffering because others suffer more, or that they are masochists who like the suffering and the attention, is just not realistic. In fact, I think your comments highlight the problem here.

If you refuse to even consider the other side of the argument and only see your side, what you have is perpetuating of the situation. They are raised to hate you, you are raised to hate them, and so it goes on and on and on and on without end or compromise until one or both of you are completely defeated, and probably takes half the world with you. The intractability of both sides of this issue are going to get the rest of us killed. It's insane.

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25-02-2011, 10:31 AM
RE: Egypt
Quote:I don't think there is any doubt the situation is better than in the Arab countries, but I don't think that is really the point. None of those countries aspires to be a democracy. They are all basically monarchies or dictatorships
.

OH, this is exactley the point. If you care so much about human rights- go and care about them in places which have no human rights and no intention to have in the near future. Israel is just so easy to critisize about it- we host and welcome those people who critisize us all the time, not threatening to kill them like countries which violet human rights constantly do.
And the events which happening right in this instant prove you are wrong- they do want a democracy, becase they know that what ever it is- it is way better then what they got until this day.

Quote:You are correct, no country is completely fair in this. However, the situation in Israel with the Palestinians is very different then what you have any place in the world. Israeli Arabs are citizens of Israel, have the right to vote, etc. but the Palestinians in the territories are kind of in a state of non-existence and seem to have zero rights in Israeli society.

Check please Kurds in Turkey, small tribes in Sudan, Tibetians in China, Chechens in Russia etc, etc. Of course they have zero rights in Israeli society- they are not citizens of Israel. Do you expect from someone who isn't your country's citizen to have the exact same rights as you have. You are the one to pay taxes, should someone who doesn't pay taxes like you do have the same rights as you have. never the less, they do get trited in Israel's hospitals, on my dads' taxes and they do work here, on my own job opportunities (last time I heard- there is no 0% of nonemployments in Israel).

Quote:Yes, Israel has been in an almost constant state of war since its inception. It hasn't faced any real threats since 1973 or so, but it definitely has been attacked. However, what we are talking about here is the specific situation regarding the Palestinians. And, that situation is probably creating more risks for Israel's long term security then anything else, because it is a wedge issue all over the region. It's a shame Arafat backed out of the deal at Davos in 2000 so he could further line his pockets at the expense of his own people, but shit happens.

Yeah, shit happens. The problem is- when we do shit, we are ambushed by the whole world, when the Palestinians do shit, and they do a lot of shit, they just point out "the ocuppation cause us to do that!" and we are ambushed by the whole world again. Does that, in any point, suppose to cause us to even bother for them? like I said to sosa, I have a country. And I couldn't care less about them having a country. Never the less, they want one? good, sit and talk with us like civilizied people and stop cry "the occupation did this and that". It is their interest to have a country, not main.

Quote:On a side note, I sometimes hope there is a hell so slime like Arafat can suffer for eternity. The man was evil.

THANK YOU! at least you know how much hypocrisy this man had.


Quote:I agree with you that Israel gets far too much attention and negative press vs. some other parts of the world and even other in the region. But, the idea that the Palestinians are not suffering because others suffer more, or that they are masochists who like the suffering and the attention, is just not realistic. In fact, I think your comments highlight the problem here.

I didn't talk about the suffer of the Palestinians. I talked about their suffer, which is way lower then those in Darfur for example, is getting too much attention from the international community. Israel is the only country which was condenmed in the UN security council, more then one time. What about Turkey, Sudan, Eritheira, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Afgahnistan, Russia, Venezuela, Iran and many many many others who cause huge anount of suffer and doesn't get punished? Saudi Arabia is member in the UN council for women rights!

Quote:If you refuse to even consider the other side of the argument and only see your side, what you have is perpetuating of the situation. They are raised to hate you, you are raised to hate them, and so it goes on and on and on and on without end or compromise until one or both of you are completely defeated, and probably takes half the world with you. The intractability of both sides of this issue are going to get the rest of us killed. It's insane.

Should I have to consider the other side of the argument? are you consider the other side of the argument when it comes to religion? Because religious agenda is just like political agenda, with over-sized emotions.
I don't, becuase the other side of the argument justifies by many the killings of my people, and it doesn't matter that you say it doesn't, because there are people in the other side who say it does.
And I wasn't raised to hate them, I was raised to love my country- which is a big difference. And like the late PM Golda Meir said- there will be peace in the middle east when the Arabs will love their sons more then they hate our's.
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25-02-2011, 12:03 PM
RE: Egypt
(25-02-2011 10:31 AM)shiranl Wrote:  OH, this is exactley the point. If you care so much about human rights- go and care about them in places which have no human rights and no intention to have in the near future. Israel is just so easy to critisize about it- we host and welcome those people who critisize us all the time, not threatening to kill them like countries which violet human rights constantly do.

I'm not all that happy about what is going on in many of those other countries either. However, there is a difference - a huge difference in my view - between a dictatorship and a democracy that purports to believe in the ideas of self determination, equality under the law and the protection of human rights.

Btw, I'm culturally Jewish (I say "culturally" as I'm obviously not religiously Jewish, what with the atheism and all), I have family in Israel, and I have the same massive hard stop in my historical family tree that most Jews with an eastern European heritage have. So, I do have some background to these issues.

Anyway.....

(25-02-2011 10:31 AM)shiranl Wrote:  And the events which happening right in this instant prove you are wrong- they do want a democracy, becase they know that what ever it is- it is way better then what they got until this day.

I think you have misunderstood me. I never said that the Arabs (and Persians) did not want the right of self determination. On the contrary, I've said that they do several times in this thread and elsewhere that they do. What I said was their current governments did not offer that. That may be about to change, though.

I'd also point out that current events are a very good indicator of what can happen when you push people for too long and too hard.

(25-02-2011 10:31 AM)shiranl Wrote:  Check please Kurds in Turkey, small tribes in Sudan, Tibetians in China, Chechens in Russia etc, etc. Of course they have zero rights in Israeli society- they are not citizens of Israel. Do you expect from someone who isn't your country's citizen to have the exact same rights as you have. You are the one to pay taxes, should someone who doesn't pay taxes like you do have the same rights as you have. never the less, they do get trited in Israel's hospitals, on my dads' taxes and they do work here, on my own job opportunities (last time I heard- there is no 0% of nonemployments in Israel).

I'm smiling at this one because we are having a lot of these debates in the US on immigration. However, this is not about taxes, it's about Israel being an occupying force in Palestinian lands. They are also not asking to be treated as citizens they are mostly asking for their own home and right of self determination. Obviously there is a faction that is asking for more than that and is focused on the destruction of Israel but I strongly suspect the great majority just want to be able to provide for their families and raise their kids in safety, basically what people all over the world wants.

(25-02-2011 10:31 AM)shiranl Wrote:  Yeah, shit happens. The problem is- when we do shit, we are ambushed by the whole world, when the Palestinians do shit, and they do a lot of shit, they just point out "the ocuppation cause us to do that!" and we are ambushed by the whole world again. Does that, in any point, suppose to cause us to even bother for them? like I said to sosa, I have a country. And I couldn't care less about them having a country. Never the less, they want one? good, sit and talk with us like civilizied people and stop cry "the occupation did this and that". It is their interest to have a country, not main.

You are very wrong if you think it is not in your interest for them to have a country and this to be resolved. Do you really want to live the rest of your life in this situation? Do you want your kids to grow up with this? I find it incredible you think this is only their problem and not yours as well.

As for the attention issue, it is what it is. I agree Israel gets more then its fair share of the blame, and there are a lot of reasons for that (most of which I think have to do with oil), but that's the situation. Sending commandos onto ships in the middle of the Med is probably not helping the situation any, though.

(25-02-2011 10:31 AM)shiranl Wrote:  Should I have to consider the other side of the argument? are you consider the other side of the argument when it comes to religion? Because religious agenda is just like political agenda, with over-sized emotions.
I don't, becuase the other side of the argument justifies by many the killings of my people, and it doesn't matter that you say it doesn't, because there are people in the other side who say it does.
And I wasn't raised to hate them, I was raised to love my country- which is a big difference. And like the late PM Golda Meir said- there will be peace in the middle east when the Arabs will love their sons more then they hate our's.

I'm familiar with the Meir quote. She was a brave woman, but she is from a very different era. And, I think she would have pushed for peace.

I would guess you were around 4 or so when Rabin was murdered, give or take a year either way. So, you probably don't have any real memories of it, but I certainly do. What he did was historic, the same way that what Sadat did was historic. A man who had come out of the Holocaust and then fought to form a country and spent his life defending it. For over 40 years he defended Israel from a foe who was determined to finish what Hitler started and, despite his strong feelings, was willing to over look them and risk his life to see past the hate and into the future. The same as Sadat was willing to do almost 2 decades earlier, who also paid with his life. But, comparing Sadat to Rabin is unfair to Rabin as what he did took a lot more courage. Israel had beaten down Egypt several times and was content to leave Egypt alone. Sadat took few real risks with the long term security of Egypt where as Rabin was willing to put it all on the table for peace.

He did not do that because he necessarily cared about the plight of the Palestinians, or because he had lost his resolve to protect Israel, or because he trusted Arafat or felt any pity for him and his point of view. He did it because he was an old man who did not want his grandchildren and great grandchildren to live in the constant state of war and fear that he had lived in his entire life. I've never met the man, but I'm fairly certain this was his motivation.

So, ultimately, you are correct that you don't have to worry about what the Palestinians think, or the world press thinks, or about the opinion of someone writing from half a world a way who will never have to live through what you must live through every day in Israel. My opinion does not matter at all.

The only thing that matters is how the Jews and the Muslims living almost side to side wish to co-exist. Now how your governments and a small group of fanatics wish you to exist, but as you want to live. You can continue as is and fight, inevitably to the total destruction of one or both of you, or you can at some point say "enough!" and find a common understanding between you where you all make the compromises necessary for a peaceful coexistence.

Finally, I don't think the lesson to be learned from Tunis, Egypt, Baharain, etc. is not that Arabs and Persians are as desirous for democracy as everyone else. I think the lesson is that the other side is far more capable of understanding the need for modernization and basic human rights then we in the West have ever been willing to give them credit for. While there are certainly extremists amongst them, it seems to me that the majority want, again, what everyone else wants: to provide for their families and keep them safe. Those are absolutely people that can be negotiated with and dealt with.

All it takes is for the people, not the leaders, but the people to say "it's time".

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25-02-2011, 02:37 PM (This post was last modified: 26-02-2011 09:33 AM by shiranl.)
RE: Egypt
Quote:I'm not all that happy about what is going on in many of those other countries either. However, there is a difference - a huge difference in my view - between a dictatorship and a democracy that purports to believe in the ideas of self determination, equality under the law and the protection of human rights.

And you just confirmed what I said- it is easier to critisize Israel because we're democracy and doesn't threaten people, that why we're the only ones to be critisized by the world.

Quote:Btw, I'm culturally Jewish (I say "culturally" as I'm obviously not religiously Jewish, what with the atheism and all), I have family in Israel, and I have the same massive hard stop in my historical family tree that most Jews with an eastern European heritage have. So, I do have some background to these issues.

And I'm culturraly Jewish, I live in Israel and me too have that massive hard stop in my historical family tree. Does that make any change?



Quote:I'm smiling at this one because we are having a lot of these debates in the US on immigration. However, this is not about taxes, it's about Israel being an occupying force in Palestinian lands. They are also not asking to be treated as citizens they are mostly asking for their own home and right of self determination. Obviously there is a faction that is asking for more than that and is focused on the destruction of Israel but I strongly suspect the great majority just want to be able to provide for their families and raise their kids in safety, basically what people all over the world wants.

And like I said to sosa before- there is no such thing "occupied Palestinian state". We occupied those teritories from Jorden, which we are in peace now and never reclaimed those lands back.
Actually, we never heard about a nation called "Palestinians" until 1967. the source of the name"Palestine" is actually from the Roman empire. which changed the name from "Israel" as showing off ownership of the land in front of the Jewish community and call it after the name of our internal enemies- Philisities. And as you know- no connection between the Philisities nor the Roman empire and today's Palestinians exist.
Well, I agree with you that the ones who don't want to be in peace with us and want to destroy us are a fraction- but they in power, they are the leaders of the Palestinians and we need to talk with their leaders in order to sign peace. And another thing- they even don't have one leader! they have 3 leaders! Hamas, PLO and the Fatah. whom we suppose to talk with?!?!


Quote:You are very wrong if you think it is not in your interest for them to have a country and this to be resolved. Do you really want to live the rest of your life in this situation? Do you want your kids to grow up with this? I find it incredible you think this is only their problem and not yours as well
.

I will live like this the rest of my life anyway. weather the Palestinians have a state or not. Let me put it that way- I do not have the slightest doubt about the relationship with a future Palestinian state. What do you think- the peace we have now with Egypt and Jorden is friendly and lovely? Do you think we say to ourselves "Oh, we have peace with 2 countries, 3 more to go and then we live happily ever after"?!? NO! we are always on guard and we will always will be! when I was 6 and my oldest sister got draft my dad said to me "don't worry, when you'll be 18 we won't have an obligation service"- and where you think I am now? 12 years ago my dad had this tiny hope we will have peace with all our enemies until I'll grew up. He won't imagine to say it to my 3-year-old niece.

Quote:As for the attention issue, it is what it is. I agree Israel gets more then its fair share of the blame, and there are a lot of reasons for that (most of which I think have to do with oil), but that's the situation. Sending commandos onto ships in the middle of the Med is probably not helping the situation any, though.

And having pirats on our shores is better?

Quote:I'm familiar with the Meir quote. She was a brave woman, but she is from a very different era. And, I think she would have pushed for peace.

Yes, from era when Zionism was, by the international law, a racist ideology. We're now in much better times.

Quote:I would guess you were around 4 or so when Rabin was murdered, give or take a year either way. So, you probably don't have any real memories of it, but I certainly do. What he did was historic, the same way that what Sadat did was historic. A man who had come out of the Holocaust and then fought to form a country and spent his life defending it. For over 40 years he defended Israel from a foe who was determined to finish what Hitler started and, despite his strong feelings, was willing to over look them and risk his life to see past the hate and into the future. The same as Sadat was willing to do almost 2 decades earlier, who also paid with his life. But, comparing Sadat to Rabin is unfair to Rabin as what he did took a lot more courage. Israel had beaten down Egypt several times and was content to leave Egypt alone. Sadat took few real risks with the long term security of Egypt where as Rabin was willing to put it all on the table for peace.

He did not do that because he necessarily cared about the plight of the Palestinians, or because he had lost his resolve to protect Israel, or because he trusted Arafat or felt any pity for him and his point of view. He did it because he was an old man who did not want his grandchildren and great grandchildren to live in the constant state of war and fear that he had lived in his entire life. I've never met the man, but I'm fairly certain this was his motivation.


The only thing that matters is how the Jews and the Muslims living almost side to side wish to co-exist. Now how your governments and a small group of fanatics wish you to exist, but as you want to live. You can continue as is and fight, inevitably to the total destruction of one or both of you, or you can at some point say "enough!" and find a common understanding between you where you all make the compromises necessary for a peaceful coexistence.


How many times Israel has said "enough!" I can not count. Someone needs to listen in the other side, becuase yelling "enough!" to the wall with getting no response just makes you a crazy person.

Quote:Finally, I don't think the lesson to be learned from Tunis, Egypt, Baharain, etc. is not that Arabs and Persians are as desirous for democracy as everyone else. I think the lesson is that the other side is far more capable of understanding the need for modernization and basic human rights then we in the West have ever been willing to give them credit for. While there are certainly extremists amongst them, it seems to me that the majority want, again, what everyone else wants: to provide for their families and keep them safe. Those are absolutely people that can be negotiated with and dealt with.

Well, we just need their leaders to be one of those who just want to provide for their families.
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25-11-2011, 06:56 AM
RE: Egypt
How sorry I am I didn't see this old topic sooner... I will not open up the whole Palestine-Israel topic again, but will only comment on someone mentioning Turkey, Sudan and other similar countries. Turkey must be trialled for genocide on International Court of justice in Den Haag, as well as some of the other counties that did the same thing as Turkey STILL does. Plain and simple.

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