Egyptair flight from Paris to Cairo crashes
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19-05-2016, 04:13 PM
RE: Egyptair flight from Paris to Cairo crashes
(19-05-2016 03:18 PM)Vosur Wrote:  It still amazes me that we can lose track of something as big and important as a commercial passenger airplane with modern tracking technologies.

Especially when we know it disappeared between Crete and Egypt. That's not a very big area.

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19-05-2016, 04:23 PM
RE: Egyptair flight from Paris to Cairo crashes
(19-05-2016 08:47 AM)morondog Wrote:  I'm flying Egyptair in about 2 months Gasp

That's a lot better than flying Egypt Air today. Thumbsup

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19-05-2016, 05:00 PM
RE: Egyptair flight from Paris to Cairo crashes
(19-05-2016 04:13 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(19-05-2016 03:18 PM)Vosur Wrote:  It still amazes me that we can lose track of something as big and important as a commercial passenger airplane with modern tracking technologies.

Especially when we know it disappeared between Crete and Egypt. That's not a very big area.

The Levantine Basin, the section of the Mediterranean Sea they were searching, is 123552 square miles large. To put it in perspective, 1 square mile = 484 football fields. To say that's not a very big area is an understatement.

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19-05-2016, 05:19 PM
RE: Egyptair flight from Paris to Cairo crashes
(19-05-2016 05:00 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  The Levantine Basin, the section of the Mediterranean Sea they were searching, is 123552 square miles large. To put it in perspective, 1 square mile = 484 football fields. To say that's not a very big area is an understatement.
The size of the area honestly shouldn't matter. GPS is a technology that can pinpoint the location of something as small as a smartphone within a few meters of accuracy anywhere in the world and in any weather conditions imaginable. The fact that airplanes fly thousands of feet up in the air should only increase its effectiveness since GPS works by communicating with various satellites in Earth's orbit. The question is: Why aren't airplanes using GPS when the technology is so cheap and readily available that it has been implemented in virtually all modern smartphones? It boggles my mind.

I'm currently researching an answer to this question on the web; I'll report back later if I find a good one. Tongue

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19-05-2016, 05:21 PM
RE: Egyptair flight from Paris to Cairo crashes
(19-05-2016 05:19 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(19-05-2016 05:00 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  The Levantine Basin, the section of the Mediterranean Sea they were searching, is 123552 square miles large. To put it in perspective, 1 square mile = 484 football fields. To say that's not a very big area is an understatement.
The size of the area honestly shouldn't matter. GPS is a technology that can pinpoint the location of something as small as a smartphone within a few meters of accuracy anywhere in the world and in any weather conditions imaginable. The fact that airplanes fly thousands of feet up in the air should only increase its effectiveness since GPS works by communicating with various satellites in Earth's orbit. The question is: Why aren't airplanes using GPS when the technology is so cheap and readily available that it has been implemented in virtually virtually all modern smartphones? It boggles my mind.

I'm currently researching an answer to this question on the web; I'll report back later if I find a good one. Tongue

Great! Would love to hear the results, curious as well.

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19-05-2016, 06:15 PM (This post was last modified: 19-05-2016 06:20 PM by Vosur.)
RE: Egyptair flight from Paris to Cairo crashes
(19-05-2016 05:21 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  
(19-05-2016 05:19 PM)Vosur Wrote:  The size of the area honestly shouldn't matter. GPS is a technology that can pinpoint the location of something as small as a smartphone within a few meters of accuracy anywhere in the world and in any weather conditions imaginable. The fact that airplanes fly thousands of feet up in the air should only increase its effectiveness since GPS works by communicating with various satellites in Earth's orbit. The question is: Why aren't airplanes using GPS when the technology is so cheap and readily available that it has been implemented in virtually virtually all modern smartphones? It boggles my mind.

I'm currently researching an answer to this question on the web; I'll report back later if I find a good one. Tongue

Great! Would love to hear the results, curious as well.
All right, I've read half a dozen articles about the disappearance of various commercial airplanes and this is my best attempt at summarizing my findings:
  • Most airplanes are currently tracked using various radar-based technologies that are over 70 years old. These only have a range of a couple hundred kilometers at most and their effectiveness can be decreased by bad weather conditions.
  • The GPS technology in our phones can only tell us where our phone is; it can't forward the phone's location to anyone else without the use of the Internet, which isn't available when an airplane is flying over the ocean.
  • A solution to this problem already exists. Airplanes can be upgraded to receive the ability to forward their location to air traffic control from anywhere in the world using existing GPS satellites.
  • The reason why this technology isn't being used in all airplanes right now is because airplane companies cite its multi-billion dollar implementation cost as being too expensive.
  • A cheaper alternative, called ADS-B, is being developed by the company Iridium. They are expected to have the required satellite network in orbit by 2017 and are aiming for an industry-wide implementation of their technology on airplanes by 2020.
  • This technology is able to track and relay the location of an airplane every 8 seconds. While it hasn't been implemented on an industry-wide scale as of 2016, a significant number of airplanes are already using it, including the one that crashed.
Here's the airplane's last known location, as relayed to air traffic control via ADS-B.

[Image: n3Sr9T.jpg]

This of course raises the question of why we haven't been able to find it even though it was being tracked by GPS. The answer is most likely that the crash, whether it was caused by a bomb or a mechanical failure, seriously damaged the on-board tracking technology. What this means is that we only know where the airplane crashed, not where the ocean currents carried the wreckage.

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19-05-2016, 06:39 PM
RE: Egyptair flight from Paris to Cairo crashes
(19-05-2016 06:15 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(19-05-2016 05:21 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  Great! Would love to hear the results, curious as well.
All right, I've read half a dozen articles about the disappearance of various commercial airplanes and this is my best attempt at summarizing my findings:
  • Most airplanes are currently tracked using various radar-based technologies that are over 70 years old. These only have a range of a couple hundred kilometers at most and their effectiveness can be decreased by bad weather conditions.
  • The GPS technology in our phones can only tell us where our phone is; it can't forward the phone's location to anyone else without the use of the Internet, which isn't available when an airplane is flying over the ocean.
  • A solution to this problem already exists. Airplanes can be upgraded to receive the ability to forward their location to air traffic control from anywhere in the world using existing GPS satellites.
  • The reason why this technology isn't being used in all airplanes right now is because airplane companies cite its multi-billion dollar implementation cost as being too expensive.
  • A cheaper alternative, called ADS-B, is being developed by the company Iridium. They are expected to have the required satellite network in orbit by 2017 and are aiming for an industry-wide implementation of their technology on airplanes by 2020.
  • This technology is able to track and relay the location of an airplane every 8 seconds. While it hasn't been implemented on an industry-wide scale as of 2016, a significant number of airplanes are already using it, including the one that crashed.
Here's the airplane's last known location, as relayed to air traffic control via ADS-B.

[Image: n3Sr9T.jpg]

This of course raises the question of why we haven't been able to find it even though it was being tracked by GPS. The answer is most likely that the crash, whether it was caused by a bomb or a mechanical failure, seriously damaged the on-board tracking technology. What this means is that we only know where the airplane crashed, not where the ocean currents carried the wreckage.

Well, at least knowing where it crashed can help. It's interesting though, wonder if they could embed the gps tracking in the flight recorder.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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19-05-2016, 08:00 PM
RE: Egyptair flight from Paris to Cairo crashes
(19-05-2016 06:39 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  
(19-05-2016 06:15 PM)Vosur Wrote:  All right, I've read half a dozen articles about the disappearance of various commercial airplanes and this is my best attempt at summarizing my findings:
  • Most airplanes are currently tracked using various radar-based technologies that are over 70 years old. These only have a range of a couple hundred kilometers at most and their effectiveness can be decreased by bad weather conditions.
  • The GPS technology in our phones can only tell us where our phone is; it can't forward the phone's location to anyone else without the use of the Internet, which isn't available when an airplane is flying over the ocean.
  • A solution to this problem already exists. Airplanes can be upgraded to receive the ability to forward their location to air traffic control from anywhere in the world using existing GPS satellites.
  • The reason why this technology isn't being used in all airplanes right now is because airplane companies cite its multi-billion dollar implementation cost as being too expensive.
  • A cheaper alternative, called ADS-B, is being developed by the company Iridium. They are expected to have the required satellite network in orbit by 2017 and are aiming for an industry-wide implementation of their technology on airplanes by 2020.
  • This technology is able to track and relay the location of an airplane every 8 seconds. While it hasn't been implemented on an industry-wide scale as of 2016, a significant number of airplanes are already using it, including the one that crashed.
Here's the airplane's last known location, as relayed to air traffic control via ADS-B.

[Image: n3Sr9T.jpg]

This of course raises the question of why we haven't been able to find it even though it was being tracked by GPS. The answer is most likely that the crash, whether it was caused by a bomb or a mechanical failure, seriously damaged the on-board tracking technology. What this means is that we only know where the airplane crashed, not where the ocean currents carried the wreckage.

Well, at least knowing where it crashed can help. It's interesting though, wonder if they could embed the gps tracking in the flight recorder.

Probably not, if you mean that it will work as a transmitter/receiver. The black box technology uses as minimal as possible data to save memory. You would NEVER put a transmitter in that box, it would interfere with the data recording. Anything you would do on a commercial aircraft in terms of a change has consequences that cost many millions of dollars. It's a nice-to-have that would probably never happen, other than saving the GPS coordinates at the time of the disaster. Which, sadly, is of minimal use.
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19-05-2016, 08:06 PM
RE: Egyptair flight from Paris to Cairo crashes
(19-05-2016 08:00 PM)Fireball Wrote:  
(19-05-2016 06:39 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  Well, at least knowing where it crashed can help. It's interesting though, wonder if they could embed the gps tracking in the flight recorder.

Probably not, if you mean that it will work as a transmitter/receiver. The black box technology uses as minimal as possible data to save memory. You would NEVER put a transmitter in that box, it would interfere with the data recording. Anything you would do on a commercial aircraft in terms of a change has consequences that cost many millions of dollars. It's a nice-to-have that would probably never happen, other than saving the GPS coordinates at the time of the disaster. Which, sadly, is of minimal use.

Well they already have those underwater beacon things which as we saw with MH370, could use some work.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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19-05-2016, 08:25 PM
RE: Egyptair flight from Paris to Cairo crashes
(19-05-2016 08:06 PM)JDog554 Wrote:  
(19-05-2016 08:00 PM)Fireball Wrote:  Probably not, if you mean that it will work as a transmitter/receiver. The black box technology uses as minimal as possible data to save memory. You would NEVER put a transmitter in that box, it would interfere with the data recording. Anything you would do on a commercial aircraft in terms of a change has consequences that cost many millions of dollars. It's a nice-to-have that would probably never happen, other than saving the GPS coordinates at the time of the disaster. Which, sadly, is of minimal use.

Well they already have those underwater beacon things which as we saw with MH370, could use some work.
Agreed! I don't know what the ultimate solution is, but it would be nice if it didn't cost a mint to implement, which they all seem to.
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