Egyptian paganism
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13-08-2016, 10:13 PM (This post was last modified: 13-08-2016 10:20 PM by Deltabravo.)
RE: Egyptian paganism
(13-08-2016 09:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(13-08-2016 09:17 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Still we keep missing the point.

I say Christianity is a Roman Hellenistic work which was intended to draw people out of Paganism which would have been in the Near East as well as Egypt. The Romans initially spread the cult of Serapis through the same.area and the Library of Aleexandria was, imho, base camp for these projects.

You say a lot of shit. You never provide any scholarly EVIDENCE.


"a lot of shit"...

1. Christianity is a Roman Hellenistic work
2. Serapis was a cult spread by the Romans

"scholarly EVIDENCE"

1. from Wiki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiani...philosophy

Christian assimilation of Hellenic philosophy was anticipated by Philo and other Greek-speaking Alexandrian Jews. Philo's blend of Judaism, Platonism, and Stoicism strongly influenced Christian Alexandrian writers like Origen and Clement of Alexandria, as well as, in the Latin world, Ambrose of Milan.

One early Christian writer of the 2nd and early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria, demonstrated Greek thought in writing,

"Philosophy has been given to the Greeks as their own kind of Covenant, their foundation for the philosophy of Christ ... the philosophy of the Greeks ... contains the basic elements of that genuine and perfect knowledge which is higher than human ... even upon those spiritual objects." (Miscellanies 6. 8)

The Church historian Eusebius suggested, essentially, in his preparation for the Gospel that Greek philosophy, although in his view derivative, was concordant with Hebrew notions. Augustine of Hippo, who ultimately systematized Christian philosophy, wrote in the 4th and early 5th century,

But when I read those books of the Platonists I was taught by them to seek incorporeal truth, so I saw your 'invisible things, understood by the things that are made' (Confessions 7. 20).

John Burnet (1892) noted[1]

The Neoplatonists were quite justified in regarding themselves as the spiritual heirs of Pythagoras; and, in their hands, philosophy ceased to exist as such, and became theology. And this tendency was at work all along; hardly a single Greek philosopher was wholly uninfluenced by it. In later days, Apollonios of Tyana showed in practice what this sort of thing must ultimately lead to. The theurgy and thaumaturgy of the late Greek schools were only the fruit of the seed sown by the generation which immediately preceded the Persian War.Commentary from Sir William Smith, Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology (1870, p. 620).[2]

One, or unity, is the essence of number, or absolute number. As absolute number it is the origin of all numbers, and so of all things. (According to another passage of Aristotle, Met. xii. 6. p. 1080, b. 7. number is produced) This original unity they also termed God (Ritter, Gesch. der FML vol. i. p. 389). These propositions, however, would, taken alone, give but a very partial idea of the Pythagorean system. A most important part is played in it by the ideas of limit, and the unlimited. They are, in fact, the fundamental ideas of the whole. One of the first declarations in the work of Philolaus was, that all things in the universe result from a combination of the unlimited and the limiting; for if all things had been unlimited, nothing could have been the object of cognizance.
It was not until the fusion of Platonic and Aristotelian theology with Christianity that the concepts of strict omnipotence, omniscience, or benevolence became commonplace. The Platonic Theory of Forms had an enormous influence on Hellenic Christian views of God. In those philosophies, Forms were the ideals of every object in the physical world, and objects in the physical world were merely shadows of those perfect forms. Platonic philosophers were able to theorize about the forms by looking at objects in the material world, and imagining what the "Perfect" tree, or "Perfect" man would be. The Aristotelian view of God grew from these Platonic roots, arguing that God was the Infinite, or the Unmoved mover.

Hellenic Christians and their medieval successors then applied this Form-based philosophy to the Christian God. Philosophers took all the things that they considered good, Power, Love, Knowledge and Size, and posited that God was "infinite" in all these respects. They then concluded that God was omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent. Since God was perfect, any change would make him less than perfect, so they asserted that God was unchanging, or immutable.


2. Serapis (Σέραπις, Attic/Ionian Greek) or Sarapis (Σάραπις, Doric Greek) is a Graeco-Egyptian god. The cult of Serapis was introduced during the 3rd century BC on the orders of Ptolemy I of Egypt[1] as a means to unify the Greeks and Egyptians in his realm. The god was depicted as Greek in appearance, but with Egyptian trappings, and combined iconography from a great many cults, signifying both abundance and resurrection. A serapeum (Greek serapeion) was any temple or religious precinct devoted to Serapis. The cultus of Serapis was spread as a matter of deliberate policy by the Ptolemaic kings, who also built an immense serapeum in Alexandria.

However, there is evidence which implies that cult of Serapis existed before the Ptolemies came to power in Alexandria – a temple of Sarapis (or Roman Serapis) in Egypt is mentioned in 323 BC by both Plutarch (Life of Alexander, 76) and Arrian (Anabasis, VII, 26, 2). The common assertion that Ptolemy "created" the deity is derived from sources which describe him erecting a statue of Sarapis in Alexandria: this statue enriched the texture of the Sarapis conception by portraying him in both Egyptian and Greek style.[2] Though Ptolemy I may have created the cult of Sarapis and endorsed him as a patron of the Ptolemaic dynasty and Alexandria, Sarapis was a syncretistic deity derived from the worship of the Egyptian Osiris and Apis (Osiris + Apis = Oserapis/Sarapis)[3] and also gained attributes from other deities, such as chthonic powers linked to the Greek Hades and Demeter, and benevolence linked to Dionysus.

Serapis continued to increase in popularity during the Roman period. Wiki

and...

The cult of Serapis was to have sweeping success throughout Greece and Asia Minor, especially in Rome, where it became the most popular religion. There was a Serapis temple in Rome as early as 105 BC. Initiation into the Serapis cult included the rite of baptism, and Sir Alan Gardiner, the British Egyptologist, argued in the Journal of Egyptian Archaeology in 1950 that Egyptian baptism should be seen as analogous to Christian baptism, of which he commented: "In both cases a symbolic cleansing by means of water serves as initiation into a properly legitimated religious life." The cults of Serapis and Isis did not merely survive the emergence of Christianity, but in the 2nd century AD actually increased in popularity. Serapis and Christ existed side-by-side and were frequently seen as interchangeable. Some early Christians made no distinction between Christ and Serapis and frequently worshipped both, while paintings of Isis with her son Horus became identified by early Christians as portraits of Mary with her son Jesus. The rite of baptism, part of the initiation ceremony of the Serapis cult, was also adopted by the Church as part of its initiation ceremony.

In AD 134, after a visit to Alexandria, the Emperor Hadrian wrote a letter to his elderly brother-in-law, Servianus, in which he commented: "So you praise Egypt, my very dear Servianus! I know the land from top to bottom . . . In it the worshippers of Serapis are Christians, and those who call themselves Bishops of Christ pay their vows to Serapis . . . Whenever the patriarch himself comes to Egypt he is made to worship Serapis by some and Christ by others.

"http://dwij.org/forum/amarna/8_serapis_and_christianity.htm Ahmed Osman Historian, lecturer, researcher and author, Ahmed Osman is a British Egyptologist born in Cairo His four in-depth books clarifying the history of the Bible and Egypt are: Stranger in the Valley of the Kings (1987) - Moses: Pharaoh of Egypt (1990) - The House of the Messiah (1992) - Out of Egypt (1998)


Bucky...seriously...

You say you are a bible scholar.
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13-08-2016, 10:30 PM (This post was last modified: 13-08-2016 11:06 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Egyptian paganism
And exactly what does all this crap have to do with ANYTHING you have asserted in this idiotic dot-connecting thread ? 1892 ? No names ? LMAO
You really need help. Name the REAL HISTORIANS TODAY that agree with your garbage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Osman_(author)
Laugh out load .. Laugh out load .. Laugh out load .. Laugh out load

"A number of Osman's positions are in conflict with mainstream Egyptology, including conventional Egyptian chronology. Some Egyptologists have gone as far as rejecting them as unacademic conjecture while others do not consider them worth refuting.[1][2] Donald B. Redford wrote a scathing review of Stranger in the Valley of the Kings for Biblical Archaeology Review.[3]

In his Christianity: An Ancient Egyptian Religion (2005), Osman claims that Christianity did not originate in Judea but is the remnant of an Ancient Egyptian mystery cult that was suppressed and transformed by the Roman authorities.

He also argues that Jesus was not Jewish but was actually the Egyptian Pharaoh Tutankhamun and that there was no Joshua, just a confusion between the names Jesus and Joshua.: "Up to the 16th century, when the Old Testament books were translated from the Mesoretic Hebrew text into modern European languages, Jesus was the name of the prophet who succeeded Moses as leader of the Israelites in Egypt. Since the 16th century we started to have two names, Jesus and Joshua, which confused people into the belief that they were two different characters".[1]

Osman states that the reason mainstream Egyptologists do not accept his ideas is because "Egyptologists have established their careers on their interpretations" and that to accept other theories could give them less authority.[1]

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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14-08-2016, 12:53 AM
RE: Egyptian paganism
Well, Bucky, only a few decades ago, what you are saying would have barred you from every post-graduate program in the world.

So what?

He says this, you say that...


People, like me, for instance, come here because they have been raised in mainstream Christianity. Presumably you were not. We are presented with a moral philosophy and told to believe it because Jesus was the son of God. We are told that people were killed in past times if they didn't believe this and in most Christian countries, it was necessary to conform.

So, what do you add to the atheist dialogue. Jesus was a myth? How does that help anyone? Only one academic has a doctorate on mythicism so everything you say about it is supported by Carrier and no one else who in your own view would be credible.

The reference to Serapis is well supported by contemporaneous documents written by the Roman Emperor. It's not in dispute. Only you think it is because you are a dogmatist.

The discussion of Hellenism and Christianity is what goes on in most university classes on Christian thought.

You need to get your head out of the dark hole you've stuck it in.
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14-08-2016, 12:59 AM
RE: Egyptian paganism
None of what you say detracts at all from the fact that Christian themes derive from the Egyptian pantheon of gods, including Horus.

I've shown a contemporaneous reference to Serapis and Christ being considered the same and Christ being Horus. I suppose the Roman Emperor was a dot joiner. LMAO
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14-08-2016, 06:40 AM
RE: Egyptian paganism
Back to the drawing board. You'll be back next week with a new set of dots connected in a way no one else has ever done it. Wake me up when you get to Jesus is Oprah. Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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14-08-2016, 11:15 AM
RE: Egyptian paganism
[Image: 981f284ebcf20b619d9f1db690fb9c64.jpg]

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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14-08-2016, 12:11 PM
RE: Egyptian paganism
Ultimately - it all comes out of a bull's ass............

It matters not which bull it came from, or which one came first.


It's still all bullshit.


Don't step in it.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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14-08-2016, 12:19 PM
RE: Egyptian paganism
(13-08-2016 08:37 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Yeah right. It's.like someone saying that identical office blocks built in Chicago and Detroit just happen to look the same and the technology arose independently because the places are a few hundred miles apart. Lol

Only you buy your theory. The rest of the planet accepts that Abraham is the patriarch of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Why body swerve the question I asked?

All historians assert that the Jewish people were in Egypt. So which Phallic God is Yahweh? Ancients saw all male gods as phallic impregnators.

I am making the point that the religions of that era and place had a central God who create with his Phallus. Moderns covered up this in Egypt by defacing monuments and self censoring their reports out of Victorian prudery. Yahweh, or God created man in his own image so the Jewish God is like Jupiter in the painting but maybe without the fish tail. That has to be right.

I've read the stuff about the Islamic moon God but all it is saying is the inventors the Koran chose Allah as name for Yahweh or God. They only gave an existing religion a new book. They didn't create a new religious culture. They just piggybacked their new book onto an existing religion for those who had not converted to Christianity and then forced it on everyone.

The point I.am.making is that the Jewish religion into which Jesus is born isn't Hellenistic. It is pagan Egyptian so Judaism in that time must have resembled Egyptian Paganism and God was o me or other of the phallic gods since he created man in his image and shagged Mary just as Jupiter shagged Olympius.

The Egyptians believed in sex as an ultimate good and in sex in the afterlife which Islam accepts as well so in that respect Islam follows in an Egyptian tradition and Judaism came out of Egypt. it seems Bucky that you want to isolate Judaism from this worldwide view of gods. It's not unique though.

My main concern is that in all this debunking of religions there is little mention here of real history which suggests an old civilization which had a fertility religion and a fertility God and built little mountains wherever they went as monuments to their gods and not as burial chambers alone. What the Romans do, having moved towards a more secular, rational world view in the late Republic, is to reinvent this old Phallic religion as Hellenistic by grabbing a figure called Jesus and turning him into the protagonist of a Hellenistic religion which one might say, "saved" the world from a barbaric pagan religion in which the rulers used sex to link themselves to god and impose their will (and have a good time). Given the location of this religion at the geo-political centerfield the.world these rulers were also fabulously wealthy so they built pyramids.as public works projects to keep people busy and in employment.

I am not a scholar as such, but I do read a lot of stuff from here and there. I have recently been reading quite often that historians find no evidence that the Jews were ever even in Egypt, and that that only is seen in the Bible, no where else.
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15-08-2016, 03:54 AM
RE: Egyptian paganism
(13-08-2016 10:13 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(13-08-2016 09:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You say a lot of shit. You never provide any scholarly EVIDENCE.


"a lot of shit"...

1. Christianity is a Roman Hellenistic work
2. Serapis was a cult spread by the Romans

"scholarly EVIDENCE"

1. from Wiki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiani...philosophy

Christian assimilation of Hellenic philosophy was anticipated by Philo and other Greek-speaking Alexandrian Jews. Philo's blend of Judaism, Platonism, and Stoicism strongly influenced Christian Alexandrian writers like Origen and Clement of Alexandria, as well as, in the Latin world, Ambrose of Milan.

One early Christian writer of the 2nd and early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria, demonstrated Greek thought in writing,

"Philosophy has been given to the Greeks as their own kind of Covenant, their foundation for the philosophy of Christ ... the philosophy of the Greeks ... contains the basic elements of that genuine and perfect knowledge which is higher than human ... even upon those spiritual objects." (Miscellanies 6. 8)

The Church historian Eusebius suggested, essentially, in his preparation for the Gospel that Greek philosophy, although in his view derivative, was concordant with Hebrew notions. Augustine of Hippo, who ultimately systematized Christian philosophy, wrote in the 4th and early 5th century,

But when I read those books of the Platonists I was taught by them to seek incorporeal truth, so I saw your 'invisible things, understood by the things that are made' (Confessions 7. 20).

John Burnet (1892) noted[1]

The Neoplatonists were quite justified in regarding themselves as the spiritual heirs of Pythagoras; and, in their hands, philosophy ceased to exist as such, and became theology. And this tendency was at work all along; hardly a single Greek philosopher was wholly uninfluenced by it. In later days, Apollonios of Tyana showed in practice what this sort of thing must ultimately lead to. The theurgy and thaumaturgy of the late Greek schools were only the fruit of the seed sown by the generation which immediately preceded the Persian War.Commentary from Sir William Smith, Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology (1870, p. 620).[2]

One, or unity, is the essence of number, or absolute number. As absolute number it is the origin of all numbers, and so of all things. (According to another passage of Aristotle, Met. xii. 6. p. 1080, b. 7. number is produced) This original unity they also termed God (Ritter, Gesch. der FML vol. i. p. 389). These propositions, however, would, taken alone, give but a very partial idea of the Pythagorean system. A most important part is played in it by the ideas of limit, and the unlimited. They are, in fact, the fundamental ideas of the whole. One of the first declarations in the work of Philolaus was, that all things in the universe result from a combination of the unlimited and the limiting; for if all things had been unlimited, nothing could have been the object of cognizance.
It was not until the fusion of Platonic and Aristotelian theology with Christianity that the concepts of strict omnipotence, omniscience, or benevolence became commonplace. The Platonic Theory of Forms had an enormous influence on Hellenic Christian views of God. In those philosophies, Forms were the ideals of every object in the physical world, and objects in the physical world were merely shadows of those perfect forms. Platonic philosophers were able to theorize about the forms by looking at objects in the material world, and imagining what the "Perfect" tree, or "Perfect" man would be. The Aristotelian view of God grew from these Platonic roots, arguing that God was the Infinite, or the Unmoved mover.

Hellenic Christians and their medieval successors then applied this Form-based philosophy to the Christian God. Philosophers took all the things that they considered good, Power, Love, Knowledge and Size, and posited that God was "infinite" in all these respects. They then concluded that God was omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent. Since God was perfect, any change would make him less than perfect, so they asserted that God was unchanging, or immutable.


2. Serapis (Σέραπις, Attic/Ionian Greek) or Sarapis (Σάραπις, Doric Greek) is a Graeco-Egyptian god. The cult of Serapis was introduced during the 3rd century BC on the orders of Ptolemy I of Egypt[1] as a means to unify the Greeks and Egyptians in his realm. The god was depicted as Greek in appearance, but with Egyptian trappings, and combined iconography from a great many cults, signifying both abundance and resurrection. A serapeum (Greek serapeion) was any temple or religious precinct devoted to Serapis. The cultus of Serapis was spread as a matter of deliberate policy by the Ptolemaic kings, who also built an immense serapeum in Alexandria.

However, there is evidence which implies that cult of Serapis existed before the Ptolemies came to power in Alexandria – a temple of Sarapis (or Roman Serapis) in Egypt is mentioned in 323 BC by both Plutarch (Life of Alexander, 76) and Arrian (Anabasis, VII, 26, 2). The common assertion that Ptolemy "created" the deity is derived from sources which describe him erecting a statue of Sarapis in Alexandria: this statue enriched the texture of the Sarapis conception by portraying him in both Egyptian and Greek style.[2] Though Ptolemy I may have created the cult of Sarapis and endorsed him as a patron of the Ptolemaic dynasty and Alexandria, Sarapis was a syncretistic deity derived from the worship of the Egyptian Osiris and Apis (Osiris + Apis = Oserapis/Sarapis)[3] and also gained attributes from other deities, such as chthonic powers linked to the Greek Hades and Demeter, and benevolence linked to Dionysus.

Serapis continued to increase in popularity during the Roman period. Wiki

and...

The cult of Serapis was to have sweeping success throughout Greece and Asia Minor, especially in Rome, where it became the most popular religion. There was a Serapis temple in Rome as early as 105 BC. Initiation into the Serapis cult included the rite of baptism, and Sir Alan Gardiner, the British Egyptologist, argued in the Journal of Egyptian Archaeology in 1950 that Egyptian baptism should be seen as analogous to Christian baptism, of which he commented: "In both cases a symbolic cleansing by means of water serves as initiation into a properly legitimated religious life." The cults of Serapis and Isis did not merely survive the emergence of Christianity, but in the 2nd century AD actually increased in popularity. Serapis and Christ existed side-by-side and were frequently seen as interchangeable. Some early Christians made no distinction between Christ and Serapis and frequently worshipped both, while paintings of Isis with her son Horus became identified by early Christians as portraits of Mary with her son Jesus. The rite of baptism, part of the initiation ceremony of the Serapis cult, was also adopted by the Church as part of its initiation ceremony.

In AD 134, after a visit to Alexandria, the Emperor Hadrian wrote a letter to his elderly brother-in-law, Servianus, in which he commented: "So you praise Egypt, my very dear Servianus! I know the land from top to bottom . . . In it the worshippers of Serapis are Christians, and those who call themselves Bishops of Christ pay their vows to Serapis . . . Whenever the patriarch himself comes to Egypt he is made to worship Serapis by some and Christ by others.

"http://dwij.org/forum/amarna/8_serapis_and_christianity.htm Ahmed Osman Historian, lecturer, researcher and author, Ahmed Osman is a British Egyptologist born in Cairo His four in-depth books clarifying the history of the Bible and Egypt are: Stranger in the Valley of the Kings (1987) - Moses: Pharaoh of Egypt (1990) - The House of the Messiah (1992) - Out of Egypt (1998)


Bucky...seriously...

You say you are a bible scholar.

PFFFTHAHAHAHA!!! Laugh out load

That reads just like Manley P. Hall woo!!!!

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

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20-08-2016, 01:43 AM
RE: Egyptian paganism
Bucky. You are becoming a troll. I live here in the Near East and walk on ancient Roman and Greek ruins every day when I walk my dog. People here follow rituals which are Abrahamic and none of them has been read a single page of the Koran since they don't speak Arabic. Your conceptions of what Islam is are.from textbooks and the media and have nothing to do with reality. All.academics are generally conservative in their approach. You are a revisionist but you heap abuse on others your attitude towards Ellis shows you are a dogmatism. you are a foul mouthed arrogant prick and no academic. Your academic advisors should read the shi. you post here and consider whether you bring their faculty into disrepute.
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