Egyptian paganism
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24-08-2016, 08:47 PM (This post was last modified: 24-08-2016 10:33 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Egyptian paganism
(23-08-2016 11:13 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  This is a profoundly ridiculous post by our resident self-proclaimed genius. Here he says Islam is not Abrahamic.

That's right idiot. It is not. Since you know absolutely NOTHING about the history of the period or area, you have no clue what I'm even talking about.
" Paganism was cleared out by Abraham in both Arabia and Canaan." is demonstrably FALSE. There were hundreds of gods worshiped in Arabia just before Islam began, AND the Hebrews worshiped more than one god. Yahweh had a wife. The claims Islam made up about Abraham are easily proven false, historically.

Islam is NOT an "Abrahamic religion". That is a religious claim. It has no more credibility than Mohamed flying on a donkey to Jerusalem or splitting the moon. There is no known pattern or tradition about any prophet named Abraham in Arabic culture until Islam was cooked up. It's a totally artificial invention and claim. There was no Abraham, and the mythological Abraham (and the Jews) worshiped A TOTALLY DIFFERENT GOD than Muslims did. The claim of "Abrahamic" is a Muslim "monotheism" claim, that Allah and Yahweh were the same god. It's simple to prove they were not in ANY way, the same gods. There is no "Abrahamic" prophet tradition in Arabic culture before the claim. None at ALL. Islam imported the myth of Abraham (as if it were real) and try to claim the gods were the same. They were not.

I provided MULTIPLE references, (not at all based on Morey). Just proves you never really read what others write. You did not address the origins of either gods I wrote about. You can't. You are utterly incompetent.

"Unfortunately there are mountains of evidence for the moon god theory, which FAR predate the Morey article, from the 1990's.

Originally, Allah had 3 daughters, and Muhammad commanded they be worshiped, and later said he had made a mistake. Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat. ->
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-allahs-daughters.htm Later the Prophet rejected these, as work of the devil, (see the Satanic Verses).
Yahweh had no daughters. Sin had THE SAME 3 daughters. It is incontrovertible PROOF. SIN IS ALLAH.

For example, the god Sin, the moon god, (the crescent moon is ubiquitous in Islam) was the primary Arabic god, and the sun god was his consort, with the stars as the children, because that's what they look like to someone without a knowledge of distance, size, and composition. If, somehow, the reality of the STARS or galaxies as larger had been "revealed", then we'd have to stop and wonder. The moon looks biggest, the sun next, and the stars small. That's what the myth system was. But the fact is, there is nothing original about any "revelation".

Islam claims that in pre-Islamic times, the god they claim, and name as Allah, was the same god the Hebrew people worshiped, (Yahweh Sabaoth), and that they are the same god. In doing so, Islam lays claim to a "continuity" of revelation, and in general, it is a common assertion, (even though a misconception), that Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are all "Abrahamic" religions. Unfortunately, this is simply not true. Christianity grew out of Judaism, and in fact, for many years, the followers of Yeshua ben Josef actually WERE Jews. Later the followers of the sub-sect of Judaism, called the "Way", (see Acts), came to be called Christians. However, even though the faith claim in and of Islam, (made by their Founder/Prophet Muhammad), that Allah is the same god as the Jewish/Hebrew god, Yahweh, archaeology from over the last 150 years has proven that to be a false claim.

This continuity claim arises from known historical patterns. When the political forces of Arabia, after Muhammad's death began the conquering and formation of the empire, originally they did not care about converting the conquered peoples in the sense that they tried to change their extant cultures, to Islam exactly. That is why there is no record of "discord" about religious matters in the conquered cultures. They just "named" the conquered chief god as Allah, and let it go at that, as long as the conquered culture worshiped only their original one god. The only thing they cared about, originally was strict monotheism, not what exact god it happened to be. They declared them ALL as manifestations of Allah. They just changed the name. It was a pattern. So in this pattern, they "named" Yahweh as Allah, not really knowing anything about what they were really doing, in the historical sense. They just did it by decree.

We know from two entirely separate lines of inquiry the claim that Yahweh, originally is the same as Allah, is false.

1. Yahweh Sabaoth came from the Sumerian myth system. He was originally one of the 70 sons of El Elyon, in the Enuma Elish, and was, in a polytheistic environment, selected as the "Elohim", (chief god among many), of the Hebrews, as they wanted a war god to assist them in battle. That is why he was called the "Lord of Hosts", (an assembled army, in battle array, and formation). The major archaeological discoveries which led to this understanding, were done at the ancient city of Nineveh, and the Royal Library of Ashurbanipal, in the 1850's. The city of Nineveh was the ancient capital of Assyria, in Northern Mesopotamia, which is modern day Iraq. Yahweh, in Ancient Sumer, or Sumeria, was NOT the Moon god, Sin. No archaeologist disputes that. They are two entirely separate deities, and have separate developmental histories.

Sin was one of the other sons of Enlil, a BROTHER of Yahweh. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_%28mythology%29 , whose seat was Ur, in the Sumerian system.

There were two main library contents, in the mound site, at the archaeological discovery of Ancient Nineveh ... the North site, (Ashurbanipal) and the South site, (King Senn-acher-ib's library...BTW, note, name has the phonetic "senn" ... it was later changed to the name of the god "Sin"), which, over the course of excavation, were tragically jumbled, and mixed with each other. To this day, scholars are still trying to work out the mess. The contents of the excavations are now in the British Museum.

2. The point in common which Islam has with Judaism, in fact, is not Yahweh, historically, but another god in the Sumerian pantheon, called "Sin". The god Sin, had many iterations, and there are hundreds of archaeological confirmations of this fact. The god Sin was a moon god, and was, and still is, in it's present iteration, (Allah), associated with the symbol of the Crescent Moon. Sin is ubiquitous in parts of the Ancient Near East.

BTW, the word "sin" in the West came from the old English word from archery, which meant to "miss the mark".
The name of the god, and the Western concept are in no way related.
The name "Sin" translates to "Controller of the Night", (ie the moon).

Over and over, in Hebrew culture, they were instructed, in the Bible texts, to STOP their worship of the moon-god, which was a constant recurring "falling from grace" theme, and return to the sole worship of Yahweh. The Old Testament constantly rebuked the worship of the Moon-god (Deut 4:19;17:3; II Kings 21:3,5; 23:5; Jeremiah 8:2; 19:13; Zeph. 1:5, etc.) This is PROOF that the god Sin, the moon-god, (and the god concept from which Allah developed), was NOT Yahweh. Sin is not Yahweh. So we're partway there. Now I just have to prove that Sin is Allah.

We know from archaeology, that camels were not domesticated until 1000 BCE, thus regular cultural exchange between Canaan, and Arabia did not occur before that, and reached it zenith, around 700 BCE. BOTH the worship of Sin, and the worship of Yahweh were flourishing LONG before that. They had diverged many centuries before. Yahweh was not worshiped in Arabia, (however, there are some who think some elements of the Southern Javeh god's characteristics may come from an Arabian rain god, which would make sense, as it's closer to Egypt, and the Moses traditions). Sin was worshiped all over the ancient Near East.

If what moon god "deniers" is true, then what would have to NOT have been true, is :
a. Yahweh would not have existed as a separate worshiped deity, (there are mountains of evidence for this, and his wife Ashera)
b. the Sin god would NOT have existed as a separate worshiped deity (there are mountains of evidence for this god, and his consort, the sun god),
c. Allah, as a separate worshiped deity, apart from Sin, AND Yahweh, would have also have to have NOT existed, (and there would have to be evidence for that),
d. there would need to be NO evidence that Allah was worshiped ALONGSIDE, and APART from Sin, as a separate worshiped deity, at least in one location.
(That is, there would have to be evidence that Sin existed at the same time and place, but separate from, Allah.)
That would be 3 different gods, if Allah is not Sin. (We know from the Bible, Yahweh is not Sin). There is evidence for only 2 gods, at any time and place. So where does that leave us ?
Unfortunately, "c" and "d" are not true. There are only two gods at any given time, and place, and they are identifiable, and not the same.
Sin turns into Allah, at the hands of Muhammad, which is perfectly reasonable, as he was born into a family which revered the moon god.
At this point, moon god deniers would have to prove that Allah did not come from Sin.

So where did the Sin god come from, and how do we know that Sin developed into, and actually was Allah ?

From the mountains of Turkey, in the North, to the banks of the Nile, in the South, archaeologists have uncovered proof that people in the Ancient Near East worshiped a moon god. As shown by Drs. Sjoberg and Hall, the ancient Sumerians worshiped a Moon-god who was called many different names. The most popular names were Nanna, Suen and Asimbabbar. His symbol was the crescent moon. Just owing simply to the amount of artifacts unearthed, the worship of Sin, was clearly the dominant cult in ancient Sumer. The cult of the Moon-god was also the most popular religion throughout ancient Mesopotamia. The Assyrians, Babylonians, and the Akkadians took the word "Suen", which was one of the names of the Moon god, and transformed it into the word Sin as their favorite name for the Moon-god. As Prof. D.T. Potts pointed out, "Sin is a name essentially Sumerian in origin which had been borrowed by the Semites". ("Treasures from the Royal Tombs of Ur", D.T. Pots et all).

http://themessianicmessage.com/article_islam_easter.pdf
http://repository.upenn.edu/dissertations/AAI8603645/

The Moon-god Sin was usually represented by the moon in its crescent phase. The sun-goddess was the wife of Sin, (and the stars were their daughters). For example, Ishtar was a daughter of Sin. Sacrifices to the Moon-god are described in the Pas Shamra texts. In the Ugaritic texts, the Moon-god was sometimes called Kusuh. In Persia, as well as in Egypt, the Moon-god is depicted on wall murals and on the heads of statues. He was the Judge of men and gods. In the ancient world, the symbol of the crescent moon can be found on seal impressions, steles, pottery, amulets, clay tablets, cylinders, weights, earrings, necklaces, wall murals, etc. In Tell-el-Obeid, a copper calf was found with a crescent moon on its forehead. An idol with the body of a bull and the head of man has a crescent moon in its forehead. In Ur, the Stela of Ur-Nammu has the crescent symbol placed at the top of the register of gods because the Moon-god was the head of the gods. Even bread was baked in the form of a crescent as an act of devotion to the Moon-god. The Ur of the Chaldees was so devoted to the Moon-god that it was sometimes called Nannar in tablets from that time period, (reflecting one of Sin's names).

A temple of the Moon-god has been excavated in Ur by Sir Leonard Woolley. He dug up many examples of moon worship in Ur and these are in the British Museum. Harran was likewise noted for its devotion to the Moon-god. In the 1950's a major temple to the Moon-god was excavated at Hazer in Palestine. Two idols of the moon god were found. Each was a stature of a man sitting upon a throne with a crescent moon carved on his chest . The accompanying inscriptions make it clear that these were idols of the Moon-god. Several smaller statues were also found which were identified by their inscriptions as the "daughters" of the Moon-god. As pointed out by Prof. Carlton S. Coon, "Muslims are notoriously loath to preserve traditions of earlier paganism and like to garble what pre-Islamic history they permit to survive in anachronistic terms". (Carleton S. Coon, Southern Arabia, Washington DC, Smithsonian, 1944, p.398)

http://www.antropologia.uw.edu.pl/SHA/sha-04-07.pdf

During the nineteenth century, Amaud, Halevy and Glaser went to Southern Arabia and dug up thousands of Sabean, Minaean, and Qatabanian inscriptions which were subsequently translated. In the 1940's, the archeologists G. Caton Thompson and Dr. Carleton S. Coon made some amazing discoveries in Arabia. During the 1950's, Wendell Phillips, William Foxwel Albright, Richard Bower and others excavated sites at Qataban, Timna, and Marib (the ancient capital of Sheba). Thousands of inscriptions from walls and rocks in Northern Arabia have also been collected. Reliefs and votive bowls used in worship of the "daughters of Allah" have also been discovered. THIS IS INCONTROVERTIBLE proof, that Allah predated any possible connection with the Hebrew god Yahweh, and they could not possibly be the same deity. The three daughters, al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat are sometimes depicted together with Allah the Moon-god represented by a crescent moon above them. The archeological evidence demonstrates the dominant religion of Arabia was the cult of the Moon god. There is no doubt about that. This moon god bore absolutely no relationship, whatsoever, to the Yahweh god, and his wife, (Ahsera). They were simply two different deities. How do we know that ?

1. Archaeology and location. The cult of Yahweh flourished to the North and West, of the sites where the Sin was prevalent.The artifacts are different. The "consorts", (wives) are different. Sin had mythological children. Yahweh did not. They cannot be the same god.

2. Scholarly consensus.

"Allah is found ... in Arabic inscriptions prior to Islam" (Encyclopedia Britannica, I:643)

"The Arabs, before the time of Mohammed, accepted and worshiped, a supreme god called allah" (Encyclopedia of Islam, eds. Houtsma, Arnold, Basset, Hartman; Leiden: E.J.Brill, 1913, I:302)

"Allah was known to the pre-Islamic Arabs; he was one of the Meccan deities" (Encyclopedia of Islam, ed. Gibb, I:406)

"Ilah ... appears in pre-Islamic poetry ... By frequency of usage, al-ilah was contracted to allah, frequently attested to in pre-Islamic poetry" (Encyclopedia of Islam, eds. Lewis, Menage, Pellat, Schacht; Leiden: E.J.Brill, 1971, III:1093)

"The name Allah goes back before Muhammed" (Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, "The Facts on File", ed. Anthony Mercatante, New York, 1983, I:41)

The origin of this (Allah) goes back to pre-Muslim times. Allah is not a common name meaning "God" (or a "god"), and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity" (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings, Edinburgh: T & T Clark, 1908, I:326)

Scholar Henry Preserved Smith of Harvard University stated:
"Allah was already known by name to the Arabs" (The Bible and Islam: or, the Influence of the Old and New Testament on the Religion of Mohammed, New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1897, p.102)

Dr. Kenneth Cragg, former editor of the prestigious scholarly journal Muslim World and an outstanding modern Western Islamic scholar, whose works were generally published by Oxford University, comments:
The name Allah is also evident in archaeological and literary remains of pre-Islamic Arabia" (The Call of the Minaret, New York: OUP, 1956, p.31)

Dr. W. Montgomery Watt, who was Professor of Arabic and Islamic Studies at Edinburgh University and Visiting Professor of Islamic Studies at College de France, Georgetown University, and the University of Toronto, has done extensive work on the pre-Islamic concept of Allah. He concludes:
"In recent years I have become increasingly convinced that for an adequate understanding of the career of Muhammad and the origins of Islam great importance must be attached to the existence in Mecca of belief in Allah as a "high god". In a sense this is a form of paganism, but it is so different from paganism as commonly understood that it deserves separate treatment" (Mohammad's Mecca, p.vii. See also his article, "Belief in a High God in pre-Islamic Mecca", Journal of Scientific Semitic Studies, vol.16, 1971, pp.35-40)

Caesar Farah in his book on Islam concludes his discussion of the pre-Islamic meaning of Allah by saying:
"There is no reason, therefore, to accept the idea that Allah passed to the Muslims from the Christians and Jews" (Islam: Beliefs and Observations, New York: Barrons, 1987, p.28)

According to Middle East scholar E.M.Wherry, whose translation of the Qur'an is still used today, in pre-Islamic times Allah-worship, as well as the worship of Baal, were both astral religions in that they involved the worship of the sun, the moon, and the stars (A Comprehensive Commentary on the Quran, Osnabrück: Otto Zeller Verlag, 1973, p.36).
"In ancient Arabia, the sun-god was viewed as a female goddess and the moon as the male god. As has been pointed out by many scholars as Alfred Guilluame, the moon god was called by various names, one of which was Allah (op.cit., Islam, p.7)
"The name Allah was used as the personal name of the moon god, in addition to the other titles that could be given to him.
"Allah, the moon god, was married to the sun goddess. Together they produced three goddesses who were called 'the daughters of Allah'. These three goddesses were called Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat.
"The daughters of Allah, along with Allah and the sun goddess were viewed as "high" gods. That is, they were viewed as being at the top of the pantheon of Arabian deities" (Robert Morey, The Islamic Invasion, Eugene, Oregon, Harvest House Publishers, 1977, pp.50-51).

The Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend records:
"Along with Allah, however, they worshiped a host of lesser gods and "daughters of Allah" (op.cit., I:61).

The Encyclopedia of Religion says: "'Allah' is a pre-Islamic name ... corresponding to the Babylonian Bel" (ed. James Hastings, Edinburgh, T. & T. Clark, 1908, I:326).

It is a well known fact archaeologically speaking that the crescent moon was the symbol of worship of the moon god both in Arabia and throughout the Middle East in pre-Islamic times. Archaeologists have excavated numerous statues and hieroglyphic inscriptions in which a crescent moon was seated on the top of the head of the deity to symbolize the worship of the moon-god. Interestingly, whilst the moon was generally worshiped as a female deity in the Ancient Near East, the Arabs viewed it as a male deity.

In Mesopotamia the Sumerian god Nanna, named Sîn by the Akkadians, was worshiped in particular in Ur, where he was the chief god of the city, and also in the city of Harran in Syria, which had close religious links with Ur. The Ugaritic texts have shown that there a moon deity was worshiped under the name yrh. On the monuments the god is represented by the symbol of the crescent moon. At Hazor in Palestine a small Canaanite shrine of the late Bronze Age was discovered which contained a basalt stele depicting two hands lifted as if in prayer to a crescent moon, indicating that the shrine was dedicated to the moon god.

The worship of stellar deities, instead of Yahweh, was always a temptation faced by the Israelites (Dt.4:19; Jer.7:18; Am.5:26; Ac.7:43). But Yahweh is at the zenith of the heavens (Job 22:12).

"The Quraysh tribe into which Mohammad was born was particularly devoted to Allah, the moon god, and especially to Allah's three daughters who were viewed as intercessors between the people and Allah.

"The worship of the three goddesses, Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat, played a significant rôle in the worship at the Kabah in Mecca. The first two daughters of Allah had names which were feminine forms of Allah."The literal Arabic name of Muhammad's father was Abd-Allah. His uncle's name was Obied-Allah. These names reveal the personal devotion that Muhammad's pagan family had to the worship of Allah, the moon god" ( Morey, p.51).

History proves conclusively that before Islam came into existence, the Sabbeans in Arabia worshiped the moon-god Allah who was married to the sun-goddess. We have also seen that it was a matter of common practice to use the name of the moon-god in personal names in Muhammad's tribe. That Allah was a pagan deity in pre-Islamic times is incontestable. And so we must ask ourselves the question: why was Muhammad's God named after a pagan deity in his own tribe?

It is an undeniable fact that an Allah idol was set up at the Kabah along with all the other idols of the time. The pagans prayed towards Mecca and the Kabah because that is where their gods were stationed. It made sense to them to face in the direction of their god and pray since that is where he was. Since the idol of their moon god, Allah, was at Mecca, they prayed towards Mecca.

As we have seen, and as is acknowledged amongst all scholars of Middle Eastern religious history, the worship of the moon-god extended far beyond Allah-worship in Arabia. The entire fertile crescent was involved in moon-worship. The data falls neatly in place and we are able therefore to understand, in part, the early success Islam had amongst Arab groups that had traditionally worshiped Allah, the moon-god. We can also understand that the use of the crescent moon as the symbol of Islam, and which appears on dozens of flags of Islamic nations in Asia and Africa, and surmounts minarets and mosque roofs, is a throwback to the days when Allah was worshiped as the moon-god in Mecca.

Nabonidus (555-539 BC), was the last king of Babylon, and he built Tayma, Arabia as a center of Moon-god worship. Segall stated, "South Arabia's "stellar religion" has always been dominated by the Moon-god in various forms" (Some scholars have also noticed that the Moon-god's name "Sin" is a part of such Arabic words as "Sin-ai," the "wilderness of Sin," etc.) Mecca was built as a shrine for the Moon-god. This is what made it the most sacred site of Arabian paganism. In 1944, G. Caton Thompson revealed in her book, "The Tombs and Moon Temple of Hureidha", that she had uncovered a temple of the Moon-god in southern Arabia. The symbols of the crescent moon and no less than twenty-one inscriptions with the name Sin were found in this temple. An idol which may be the Moon-god himself was also discovered. This was confirmed by other well-known archeologists.

In 1944, G. Caton Thompson revealed in her book, The Tombs and Moon Temple of Hureidah, that she had uncovered a temple of the moon-god in southern Arabia (see map above). The symbols of the crescent moon and no less than 21 inscriptions with the name Sîn were found in this temple (see above left). An idol which is probably the moon-god himself was also discovered (see above right). This was later confirmed by other well-known archaeologists (See Richard Le Baron Bower Jr. and Frank P. Albright, Archaeological Discoveries in South Arabia, Baltimore, John Hopkins University Press, 1958, p.78ff; Ray Cleveland, An Ancient South Arabian Necropolis, Baltimore, John Hopkins University Press, 1965; Nelson Gleuck, Deities and Dolphins, New York, Farrar, Strauss and Giroux, 1965).

Worship of the Moon god continued in the Christian era. Evidence gathered from both North and South Arabia demonstrate that Moon-god worship was clearly active even in Muhammad's day and was still the dominant cult. According to numerous inscriptions, while the name of the Moon-god was Sin, his title was al-ilah, i.e. "the deity," meaning that he was the chief or high god among the gods. As Dr. Coon pointed out, "The god Il or Ilah was originally a phase of the Moon God." The Moon-god was called al-ilah, i.e. the god, which was shortened to Allah in pre-Islamic times. The pagan Arabs even used Allah in the names they gave to their children. For example, both Muhammad's father and uncle had Allah as part of their names. The fact that they were given such names by their pagan parents proves that Allah was the title for the Moon-god even in Muhammad's day. Prof. Coon goes on to say, "Similarly, under Mohammed's tutelage, the relatively anonymous Ilah, became Al-Ilah, The God, or Allah, the Supreme Being."

The word "Allah" comes from the compound Arabic word, al-ilah. Al is the definite article "the" and ilah is an Arabic word for "god", i.e. the god. We see immediately that (a) this is not a proper name but a generic name rather like the Hebrew El (which as we have seen was used of any deity; and (b) that Allah is not a foreign word (as it would have been if it had been borrowed from the Hebrew Bible) but a purely Arabic one. It would also be wrong to compare "Allah" with the Hebrew or Greek for God (El and Theos, respectively), because "Allah" is purely an Arabic term used exclusively in reference to an Arabic deity.

THE classic scholarship in the West on Qur'an : http://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/THE_..._QURAN.pdf ,
http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Tis.../index.htm
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Sources/
http://jacksonsnyder.com/arc/Articles%202002/quran.htm
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/_PDFAr...4W0404.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_...esopotamia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-82PT90T28 (ignore the religious claims at the beginning, start at 1:00)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dmoHxiK6...re=related

The Arabs worshiped the Moon-god Allah by praying toward Mecca several times a day; making a pilgrimage to Mecca; running around the temple of the Moon-god called the Kabah; kissing the black stone; killing an animal in sacrifice to the Moon-god; throwing stones at the devil; fasting for the month which begins and ends with the crescent moon; giving alms to the poor, etc. The Muslim's claim that Allah is Yahweh and that Islam arose from the religion of the prophets and apostles is refuted by solid, overwhelming archeological evidence, and even if true, in the extreme off chance that ALL the archaeology is wrong, then it's false anyway, as we know full well where Yahweh came from, and his mythological origns. Islam is nothing more than an extension of an ancient Moon-god cult. It has taken the symbols, the rites, the ceremonies, and even the name of its god from the ancient religion of the Moon-god.

The first point of the Muslim creed is not, "Allah is great" but "Allah is the greatest," i.e., he is the greatest among the gods. Why would Muhammad say that Allah is the "greatest" except in a polytheistic context? The Arabic word is used to contrast the greater from the lesser. That this is true is seen from the fact that the Arabs never accused Muhammad of preaching a different Allah than the one they already worshipped. This "Allah" was the Moon-god according to the archeological evidence. Muhammad thus attempted to have it both ways. To his contemporaries, he said that he still believed in the Moon-god Allah. To the Jews and the Christians, he said that Allah was their god too. Muhammad was born into a family that worship the moon god, and was steeped in that tradition. He did not break from it. He enhanced, and extended it.

There are other, more esoteric, fundamental philosophical differences, between Judaism and Islam, which leads one to conclude that the godheads are not similar. In Judaism, originally a moral evil, (in the Garden myth), was something which was *not-Chaos*, ie the opposite of Chaos, (which was a common theme in the Sumerian myth system). The evil in the Garden myth was "attempting to encompass opposites, (ie Choas), or "be like a god"... the ability to "encompass the opposites". . In Islam, the overriding concept of evil is non-submission. Period. Islam means to "submit", (to the will of Allah). They are very different concepts. Thus the "revelation" of one,is fundamentally different from the other, NOT a "continuity". At the "last judgement" is very different. Jesus thought it was immanent in his lifetime. By the time of Muhammad, he appropriated the later concepts, as he would have no way of knowing what Jesus actually taught about.

From the apparent beginning, "the book", ie the Qur'an is the central organizing factor in the religion of Islam. No "book" was the central organizing factor in either Judaism or Christianity. The OT bible texts were NOT assembled in to one book, until very late in their history, and it was simply not available, (5% or less literacy rates), or important to Jews,until an organizing force was needed post Exile, and post Diaspora. Christianity preached the "good news", (according to St. Paul), but at the time he said that there were no gospel texts yet, and no organized collections of them, until much later. As we see in the Donner video, the "believers" or "believing community" is very similar to the early communities of Christians, ie believers who wrote their texts for their worship, (ie the gospels).

additional ref : Berta Segall, The Iconography of Cosmic Kingship, the Art Bulletin, vol.xxxviii, 1956, p.77

It is interesting, the general atmosphere that exists in the world today, with respect to any questioning of the tenets of Islam. At some level, obviously, Fundamentalists must perceive how insane their positions are, and thus are reflexively defensive. It was the same in the Medieval period for the Judean/Christian religions also. When the Bible was first discovered to contain errors, and contradictions there began a long history of cover-up, and persecution of scholars. Someone noticed in the 11th Century that the list of Edomite Kings, in Genesis actually lived and died after Moses, and he could not have possibly written the Pentateuch. This man was Isaac ibn Yashush. He was labeled Isaac the Blunderer, (much as Ehrman was labeled by Craig). He however proved to be right, and after saying his book should be burned, his labelor eventually said "And he who understands will keep silent". Eventually, however, truth did out, just as it will eventually, about the texts and claims in Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Donner



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD2STFZtw...ure=relmfu
http://www.al-bab.com/arab/literature/lit.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPnbd1VLm-4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jSq89TMflk
http://www.givingananswer.org/articles/koran.html#intro

Well developed Arabic poetry was flourishing well before the Qur'an was assembled. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_poetry ,
http://www.islamicedfoundation.com/material.htm ,
and the poetry of Muhammad exists within the context of a well developed poetry of the time. There is no "giant leap forward" in the poetry of Islam.
It is of phenomenal beauty, no doubt at all, but it exists within a context of beautiful poetry. As poetry, the Qur'an is not a unique work of poetry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ja%27far_Mu...h%C4%81kir

There are many well known mistakes in the "science" presented in the Qur'an, but it simply reflected the culture of it's day.
http://www.bibleandscience.com/science/quran.htm
but many amazing advances, also came from Arabic culture : http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/...zuQypeWReg ,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKLykao7U...re=related

Another interesting historical fact, is that during the early development of Islam, it seems, ((see the Donner, (U of Chicago) video)), that actual belief in the Qur'an was not the central organizing fact of his communities, but only, simply, monotheism. Jews and Christians were also members of "the believers". It's not until later, that the Califs
required organization around Islam, as an exclusive, and exclusionary boundary for a community.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliph

THE most important element of the faith, and Muhammad's central addition to his culture, was absolute monotheism. This idea had already arisen in human ideas, in Egypt, with Akhenaten, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten , (but was suppressed), and had a long history of development in Hebrew culture, but much of the Hebrew development was politically motivated, and we know that historical process, and was more monolaterist polytheism. Hebrew culture, and Christianity by the time of Muhammad, were also monotheistic.

Maybe Muhammad never really existed ?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUC5Su5P8D4 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRZtUHUifas , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6udiRzFO4Sk

Why is all this unknown, for the most part ? It's because, as Dr. Ehrman said in his video discussion forgery in the New Testament, when someone asked him why he didn't do a book on the Qur'an, he said "ya well when I stop valuing my life, maybe I'll work on that".

You, db, are a dot-connecting ignoramus, with no background in the period or cultures. NONE of this is based on Morey. None of this are you capable of refuting.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-08-2016, 01:34 AM
RE: Egyptian paganism
(24-08-2016 08:47 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-08-2016 11:13 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  This is a profoundly ridiculous post by our resident self-proclaimed genius. Here he says Islam is not Abrahamic.

That's right idiot. It is not. Since you know absolutely NOTHING about the history of the period or area, you have no clue what I'm even talking about.
" Paganism was cleared out by Abraham in both Arabia and Canaan." is demonstrably FALSE. There were hundreds of gods worshiped in Arabia just before Islam began, AND the Hebrews worshiped more than one god. Yahweh had a wife. The claims Islam made up about Abraham are easily proven false, historically.

Islam is NOT an "Abrahamic religion". That is a religious claim. It has no more credibility than Mohamed flying on a donkey to Jerusalem or splitting the moon. There is no known pattern or tradition about any prophet named Abraham in Arabic culture until Islam was cooked up. It's a totally artificial invention and claim. There was no Abraham, and the mythological Abraham (and the Jews) worshiped A TOTALLY DIFFERENT GOD than Muslims did. The claim of "Abrahamic" is a Muslim "monotheism" claim, that Allah and Yahweh were the same god. It's simple to prove they were not in ANY way, the same gods. There is no "Abrahamic" prophet tradition in Arabic culture before the claim. None at ALL. Islam imported the myth of Abraham (as if it were real) and try to claim the gods were the same. They were not.

I provided MULTIPLE references, (not at all based on Morey). Just proves you never really read what others write. You did not address the origins of either gods I wrote about. You can't. You are utterly incompetent.

"Unfortunately there are mountains of evidence for the moon god theory, which FAR predate the Morey article, from the 1990's.

Originally, Allah had 3 daughters, and Muhammad commanded they be worshiped, and later said he had made a mistake. Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat. ->
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-allahs-daughters.htm Later the Prophet rejected these, as work of the devil, (see the Satanic Verses).
Yahweh had no daughters. Sin had THE SAME 3 daughters. It is incontrovertible PROOF. SIN IS ALLAH.

For example, the god Sin, the moon god, (the crescent moon is ubiquitous in Islam) was the primary Arabic god, and the sun god was his consort, with the stars as the children, because that's what they look like to someone without a knowledge of distance, size, and composition. If, somehow, the reality of the STARS or galaxies as larger had been "revealed", then we'd have to stop and wonder. The moon looks biggest, the sun next, and the stars small. That's what the myth system was. But the fact is, there is nothing original about any "revelation".

Islam claims that in pre-Islamic times, the god they claim, and name as Allah, was the same god the Hebrew people worshiped, (Yahweh Sabaoth), and that they are the same god. In doing so, Islam lays claim to a "continuity" of revelation, and in general, it is a common assertion, (even though a misconception), that Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are all "Abrahamic" religions. Unfortunately, this is simply not true. Christianity grew out of Judaism, and in fact, for many years, the followers of Yeshua ben Josef actually WERE Jews. Later the followers of the sub-sect of Judaism, called the "Way", (see Acts), came to be called Christians. However, even though the faith claim in and of Islam, (made by their Founder/Prophet Muhammad), that Allah is the same god as the Jewish/Hebrew god, Yahweh, archaeology from over the last 150 years has proven that to be a false claim.

This continuity claim arises from known historical patterns. When the political forces of Arabia, after Muhammad's death began the conquering and formation of the empire, originally they did not care about converting the conquered peoples in the sense that they tried to change their extant cultures, to Islam exactly. That is why there is no record of "discord" about religious matters in the conquered cultures. They just "named" the conquered chief god as Allah, and let it go at that, as long as the conquered culture worshiped only their original one god. The only thing they cared about, originally was strict monotheism, not what exact god it happened to be. They declared them ALL as manifestations of Allah. They just changed the name. It was a pattern. So in this pattern, they "named" Yahweh as Allah, not really knowing anything about what they were really doing, in the historical sense. They just did it by decree.

We know from two entirely separate lines of inquiry the claim that Yahweh, originally is the same as Allah, is false.

1. Yahweh Sabaoth came from the Sumerian myth system. He was originally one of the 70 sons of El Elyon, in the Enuma Elish, and was, in a polytheistic environment, selected as the "Elohim", (chief god among many), of the Hebrews, as they wanted a war god to assist them in battle. That is why he was called the "Lord of Hosts", (an assembled army, in battle array, and formation). The major archaeological discoveries which led to this understanding, were done at the ancient city of Nineveh, and the Royal Library of Ashurbanipal, in the 1850's. The city of Nineveh was the ancient capital of Assyria, in Northern Mesopotamia, which is modern day Iraq. Yahweh, in Ancient Sumer, or Sumeria, was NOT the Moon god, Sin. No archaeologist disputes that. They are two entirely separate deities, and have separate developmental histories.

Sin was one of the other sons of Enlil, a BROTHER of Yahweh. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_%28mythology%29 , whose seat was Ur, in the Sumerian system.

There were two main library contents, in the mound site, at the archaeological discovery of Ancient Nineveh ... the North site, (Ashurbanipal) and the South site, (King Senn-acher-ib's library...BTW, note, name has the phonetic "senn" ... it was later changed to the name of the god "Sin"), which, over the course of excavation, were tragically jumbled, and mixed with each other. To this day, scholars are still trying to work out the mess. The contents of the excavations are now in the British Museum.

2. The point in common which Islam has with Judaism, in fact, is not Yahweh, historically, but another god in the Sumerian pantheon, called "Sin". The god Sin, had many iterations, and there are hundreds of archaeological confirmations of this fact. The god Sin was a moon god, and was, and still is, in it's present iteration, (Allah), associated with the symbol of the Crescent Moon. Sin is ubiquitous in parts of the Ancient Near East.

BTW, the word "sin" in the West came from the old English word from archery, which meant to "miss the mark".
The name of the god, and the Western concept are in no way related.
The name "Sin" translates to "Controller of the Night", (ie the moon).

Over and over, in Hebrew culture, they were instructed, in the Bible texts, to STOP their worship of the moon-god, which was a constant recurring "falling from grace" theme, and return to the sole worship of Yahweh. The Old Testament constantly rebuked the worship of the Moon-god (Deut 4:19;17:3; II Kings 21:3,5; 23:5; Jeremiah 8:2; 19:13; Zeph. 1:5, etc.) This is PROOF that the god Sin, the moon-god, (and the god concept from which Allah developed), was NOT Yahweh. Sin is not Yahweh. So we're partway there. Now I just have to prove that Sin is Allah.

We know from archaeology, that camels were not domesticated until 1000 BCE, thus regular cultural exchange between Canaan, and Arabia did not occur before that, and reached it zenith, around 700 BCE. BOTH the worship of Sin, and the worship of Yahweh were flourishing LONG before that. They had diverged many centuries before. Yahweh was not worshiped in Arabia, (however, there are some who think some elements of the Southern Javeh god's characteristics may come from an Arabian rain god, which would make sense, as it's closer to Egypt, and the Moses traditions). Sin was worshiped all over the ancient Near East.

If what moon god "deniers" is true, then what would have to NOT have been true, is :
a. Yahweh would not have existed as a separate worshiped deity, (there are mountains of evidence for this, and his wife Ashera)
b. the Sin god would NOT have existed as a separate worshiped deity (there are mountains of evidence for this god, and his consort, the sun god),
c. Allah, as a separate worshiped deity, apart from Sin, AND Yahweh, would have also have to have NOT existed, (and there would have to be evidence for that),
d. there would need to be NO evidence that Allah was worshiped ALONGSIDE, and APART from Sin, as a separate worshiped deity, at least in one location.
(That is, there would have to be evidence that Sin existed at the same time and place, but separate from, Allah.)
That would be 3 different gods, if Allah is not Sin. (We know from the Bible, Yahweh is not Sin). There is evidence for only 2 gods, at any time and place. So where does that leave us ?
Unfortunately, "c" and "d" are not true. There are only two gods at any given time, and place, and they are identifiable, and not the same.
Sin turns into Allah, at the hands of Muhammad, which is perfectly reasonable, as he was born into a family which revered the moon god.
At this point, moon god deniers would have to prove that Allah did not come from Sin.

So where did the Sin god come from, and how do we know that Sin developed into, and actually was Allah ?

From the mountains of Turkey, in the North, to the banks of the Nile, in the South, archaeologists have uncovered proof that people in the Ancient Near East worshiped a moon god. As shown by Drs. Sjoberg and Hall, the ancient Sumerians worshiped a Moon-god who was called many different names. The most popular names were Nanna, Suen and Asimbabbar. His symbol was the crescent moon. Just owing simply to the amount of artifacts unearthed, the worship of Sin, was clearly the dominant cult in ancient Sumer. The cult of the Moon-god was also the most popular religion throughout ancient Mesopotamia. The Assyrians, Babylonians, and the Akkadians took the word "Suen", which was one of the names of the Moon god, and transformed it into the word Sin as their favorite name for the Moon-god. As Prof. D.T. Potts pointed out, "Sin is a name essentially Sumerian in origin which had been borrowed by the Semites". ("Treasures from the Royal Tombs of Ur", D.T. Pots et all).

http://themessianicmessage.com/article_islam_easter.pdf
http://repository.upenn.edu/dissertations/AAI8603645/

The Moon-god Sin was usually represented by the moon in its crescent phase. The sun-goddess was the wife of Sin, (and the stars were their daughters). For example, Ishtar was a daughter of Sin. Sacrifices to the Moon-god are described in the Pas Shamra texts. In the Ugaritic texts, the Moon-god was sometimes called Kusuh. In Persia, as well as in Egypt, the Moon-god is depicted on wall murals and on the heads of statues. He was the Judge of men and gods. In the ancient world, the symbol of the crescent moon can be found on seal impressions, steles, pottery, amulets, clay tablets, cylinders, weights, earrings, necklaces, wall murals, etc. In Tell-el-Obeid, a copper calf was found with a crescent moon on its forehead. An idol with the body of a bull and the head of man has a crescent moon in its forehead. In Ur, the Stela of Ur-Nammu has the crescent symbol placed at the top of the register of gods because the Moon-god was the head of the gods. Even bread was baked in the form of a crescent as an act of devotion to the Moon-god. The Ur of the Chaldees was so devoted to the Moon-god that it was sometimes called Nannar in tablets from that time period, (reflecting one of Sin's names).

A temple of the Moon-god has been excavated in Ur by Sir Leonard Woolley. He dug up many examples of moon worship in Ur and these are in the British Museum. Harran was likewise noted for its devotion to the Moon-god. In the 1950's a major temple to the Moon-god was excavated at Hazer in Palestine. Two idols of the moon god were found. Each was a stature of a man sitting upon a throne with a crescent moon carved on his chest . The accompanying inscriptions make it clear that these were idols of the Moon-god. Several smaller statues were also found which were identified by their inscriptions as the "daughters" of the Moon-god. As pointed out by Prof. Carlton S. Coon, "Muslims are notoriously loath to preserve traditions of earlier paganism and like to garble what pre-Islamic history they permit to survive in anachronistic terms". (Carleton S. Coon, Southern Arabia, Washington DC, Smithsonian, 1944, p.398)

http://www.antropologia.uw.edu.pl/SHA/sha-04-07.pdf

During the nineteenth century, Amaud, Halevy and Glaser went to Southern Arabia and dug up thousands of Sabean, Minaean, and Qatabanian inscriptions which were subsequently translated. In the 1940's, the archeologists G. Caton Thompson and Dr. Carleton S. Coon made some amazing discoveries in Arabia. During the 1950's, Wendell Phillips, William Foxwel Albright, Richard Bower and others excavated sites at Qataban, Timna, and Marib (the ancient capital of Sheba). Thousands of inscriptions from walls and rocks in Northern Arabia have also been collected. Reliefs and votive bowls used in worship of the "daughters of Allah" have also been discovered. THIS IS INCONTROVERTIBLE proof, that Allah predated any possible connection with the Hebrew god Yahweh, and they could not possibly be the same deity. The three daughters, al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat are sometimes depicted together with Allah the Moon-god represented by a crescent moon above them. The archeological evidence demonstrates the dominant religion of Arabia was the cult of the Moon god. There is no doubt about that. This moon god bore absolutely no relationship, whatsoever, to the Yahweh god, and his wife, (Ahsera). They were simply two different deities. How do we know that ?

1. Archaeology and location. The cult of Yahweh flourished to the North and West, of the sites where the Sin was prevalent.The artifacts are different. The "consorts", (wives) are different. Sin had mythological children. Yahweh did not. They cannot be the same god.

2. Scholarly consensus.

"Allah is found ... in Arabic inscriptions prior to Islam" (Encyclopedia Britannica, I:643)

"The Arabs, before the time of Mohammed, accepted and worshiped, a supreme god called allah" (Encyclopedia of Islam, eds. Houtsma, Arnold, Basset, Hartman; Leiden: E.J.Brill, 1913, I:302)

"Allah was known to the pre-Islamic Arabs; he was one of the Meccan deities" (Encyclopedia of Islam, ed. Gibb, I:406)

"Ilah ... appears in pre-Islamic poetry ... By frequency of usage, al-ilah was contracted to allah, frequently attested to in pre-Islamic poetry" (Encyclopedia of Islam, eds. Lewis, Menage, Pellat, Schacht; Leiden: E.J.Brill, 1971, III:1093)

"The name Allah goes back before Muhammed" (Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, "The Facts on File", ed. Anthony Mercatante, New York, 1983, I:41)

The origin of this (Allah) goes back to pre-Muslim times. Allah is not a common name meaning "God" (or a "god"), and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity" (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings, Edinburgh: T & T Clark, 1908, I:326)

Scholar Henry Preserved Smith of Harvard University stated:
"Allah was already known by name to the Arabs" (The Bible and Islam: or, the Influence of the Old and New Testament on the Religion of Mohammed, New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1897, p.102)

Dr. Kenneth Cragg, former editor of the prestigious scholarly journal Muslim World and an outstanding modern Western Islamic scholar, whose works were generally published by Oxford University, comments:
The name Allah is also evident in archaeological and literary remains of pre-Islamic Arabia" (The Call of the Minaret, New York: OUP, 1956, p.31)

Dr. W. Montgomery Watt, who was Professor of Arabic and Islamic Studies at Edinburgh University and Visiting Professor of Islamic Studies at College de France, Georgetown University, and the University of Toronto, has done extensive work on the pre-Islamic concept of Allah. He concludes:
"In recent years I have become increasingly convinced that for an adequate understanding of the career of Muhammad and the origins of Islam great importance must be attached to the existence in Mecca of belief in Allah as a "high god". In a sense this is a form of paganism, but it is so different from paganism as commonly understood that it deserves separate treatment" (Mohammad's Mecca, p.vii. See also his article, "Belief in a High God in pre-Islamic Mecca", Journal of Scientific Semitic Studies, vol.16, 1971, pp.35-40)

Caesar Farah in his book on Islam concludes his discussion of the pre-Islamic meaning of Allah by saying:
"There is no reason, therefore, to accept the idea that Allah passed to the Muslims from the Christians and Jews" (Islam: Beliefs and Observations, New York: Barrons, 1987, p.28)

According to Middle East scholar E.M.Wherry, whose translation of the Qur'an is still used today, in pre-Islamic times Allah-worship, as well as the worship of Baal, were both astral religions in that they involved the worship of the sun, the moon, and the stars (A Comprehensive Commentary on the Quran, Osnabrück: Otto Zeller Verlag, 1973, p.36).
"In ancient Arabia, the sun-god was viewed as a female goddess and the moon as the male god. As has been pointed out by many scholars as Alfred Guilluame, the moon god was called by various names, one of which was Allah (op.cit., Islam, p.7)
"The name Allah was used as the personal name of the moon god, in addition to the other titles that could be given to him.
"Allah, the moon god, was married to the sun goddess. Together they produced three goddesses who were called 'the daughters of Allah'. These three goddesses were called Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat.
"The daughters of Allah, along with Allah and the sun goddess were viewed as "high" gods. That is, they were viewed as being at the top of the pantheon of Arabian deities" (Robert Morey, The Islamic Invasion, Eugene, Oregon, Harvest House Publishers, 1977, pp.50-51).

The Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend records:
"Along with Allah, however, they worshiped a host of lesser gods and "daughters of Allah" (op.cit., I:61).

The Encyclopedia of Religion says: "'Allah' is a pre-Islamic name ... corresponding to the Babylonian Bel" (ed. James Hastings, Edinburgh, T. & T. Clark, 1908, I:326).

It is a well known fact archaeologically speaking that the crescent moon was the symbol of worship of the moon god both in Arabia and throughout the Middle East in pre-Islamic times. Archaeologists have excavated numerous statues and hieroglyphic inscriptions in which a crescent moon was seated on the top of the head of the deity to symbolize the worship of the moon-god. Interestingly, whilst the moon was generally worshiped as a female deity in the Ancient Near East, the Arabs viewed it as a male deity.

In Mesopotamia the Sumerian god Nanna, named Sîn by the Akkadians, was worshiped in particular in Ur, where he was the chief god of the city, and also in the city of Harran in Syria, which had close religious links with Ur. The Ugaritic texts have shown that there a moon deity was worshiped under the name yrh. On the monuments the god is represented by the symbol of the crescent moon. At Hazor in Palestine a small Canaanite shrine of the late Bronze Age was discovered which contained a basalt stele depicting two hands lifted as if in prayer to a crescent moon, indicating that the shrine was dedicated to the moon god.

The worship of stellar deities, instead of Yahweh, was always a temptation faced by the Israelites (Dt.4:19; Jer.7:18; Am.5:26; Ac.7:43). But Yahweh is at the zenith of the heavens (Job 22:12).

"The Quraysh tribe into which Mohammad was born was particularly devoted to Allah, the moon god, and especially to Allah's three daughters who were viewed as intercessors between the people and Allah.

"The worship of the three goddesses, Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat, played a significant rôle in the worship at the Kabah in Mecca. The first two daughters of Allah had names which were feminine forms of Allah."The literal Arabic name of Muhammad's father was Abd-Allah. His uncle's name was Obied-Allah. These names reveal the personal devotion that Muhammad's pagan family had to the worship of Allah, the moon god" ( Morey, p.51).

History proves conclusively that before Islam came into existence, the Sabbeans in Arabia worshiped the moon-god Allah who was married to the sun-goddess. We have also seen that it was a matter of common practice to use the name of the moon-god in personal names in Muhammad's tribe. That Allah was a pagan deity in pre-Islamic times is incontestable. And so we must ask ourselves the question: why was Muhammad's God named after a pagan deity in his own tribe?

It is an undeniable fact that an Allah idol was set up at the Kabah along with all the other idols of the time. The pagans prayed towards Mecca and the Kabah because that is where their gods were stationed. It made sense to them to face in the direction of their god and pray since that is where he was. Since the idol of their moon god, Allah, was at Mecca, they prayed towards Mecca.

As we have seen, and as is acknowledged amongst all scholars of Middle Eastern religious history, the worship of the moon-god extended far beyond Allah-worship in Arabia. The entire fertile crescent was involved in moon-worship. The data falls neatly in place and we are able therefore to understand, in part, the early success Islam had amongst Arab groups that had traditionally worshiped Allah, the moon-god. We can also understand that the use of the crescent moon as the symbol of Islam, and which appears on dozens of flags of Islamic nations in Asia and Africa, and surmounts minarets and mosque roofs, is a throwback to the days when Allah was worshiped as the moon-god in Mecca.

Nabonidus (555-539 BC), was the last king of Babylon, and he built Tayma, Arabia as a center of Moon-god worship. Segall stated, "South Arabia's "stellar religion" has always been dominated by the Moon-god in various forms" (Some scholars have also noticed that the Moon-god's name "Sin" is a part of such Arabic words as "Sin-ai," the "wilderness of Sin," etc.) Mecca was built as a shrine for the Moon-god. This is what made it the most sacred site of Arabian paganism. In 1944, G. Caton Thompson revealed in her book, "The Tombs and Moon Temple of Hureidha", that she had uncovered a temple of the Moon-god in southern Arabia. The symbols of the crescent moon and no less than twenty-one inscriptions with the name Sin were found in this temple. An idol which may be the Moon-god himself was also discovered. This was confirmed by other well-known archeologists.

In 1944, G. Caton Thompson revealed in her book, The Tombs and Moon Temple of Hureidah, that she had uncovered a temple of the moon-god in southern Arabia (see map above). The symbols of the crescent moon and no less than 21 inscriptions with the name Sîn were found in this temple (see above left). An idol which is probably the moon-god himself was also discovered (see above right). This was later confirmed by other well-known archaeologists (See Richard Le Baron Bower Jr. and Frank P. Albright, Archaeological Discoveries in South Arabia, Baltimore, John Hopkins University Press, 1958, p.78ff; Ray Cleveland, An Ancient South Arabian Necropolis, Baltimore, John Hopkins University Press, 1965; Nelson Gleuck, Deities and Dolphins, New York, Farrar, Strauss and Giroux, 1965).

Worship of the Moon god continued in the Christian era. Evidence gathered from both North and South Arabia demonstrate that Moon-god worship was clearly active even in Muhammad's day and was still the dominant cult. According to numerous inscriptions, while the name of the Moon-god was Sin, his title was al-ilah, i.e. "the deity," meaning that he was the chief or high god among the gods. As Dr. Coon pointed out, "The god Il or Ilah was originally a phase of the Moon God." The Moon-god was called al-ilah, i.e. the god, which was shortened to Allah in pre-Islamic times. The pagan Arabs even used Allah in the names they gave to their children. For example, both Muhammad's father and uncle had Allah as part of their names. The fact that they were given such names by their pagan parents proves that Allah was the title for the Moon-god even in Muhammad's day. Prof. Coon goes on to say, "Similarly, under Mohammed's tutelage, the relatively anonymous Ilah, became Al-Ilah, The God, or Allah, the Supreme Being."

The word "Allah" comes from the compound Arabic word, al-ilah. Al is the definite article "the" and ilah is an Arabic word for "god", i.e. the god. We see immediately that (a) this is not a proper name but a generic name rather like the Hebrew El (which as we have seen was used of any deity; and (b) that Allah is not a foreign word (as it would have been if it had been borrowed from the Hebrew Bible) but a purely Arabic one. It would also be wrong to compare "Allah" with the Hebrew or Greek for God (El and Theos, respectively), because "Allah" is purely an Arabic term used exclusively in reference to an Arabic deity.

THE classic scholarship in the West on Qur'an : http://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/THE_..._QURAN.pdf ,
http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Tis.../index.htm
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Sources/
http://jacksonsnyder.com/arc/Articles%202002/quran.htm
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/_PDFAr...4W0404.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_...esopotamia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-82PT90T28 (ignore the religious claims at the beginning, start at 1:00)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dmoHxiK6...re=related

The Arabs worshiped the Moon-god Allah by praying toward Mecca several times a day; making a pilgrimage to Mecca; running around the temple of the Moon-god called the Kabah; kissing the black stone; killing an animal in sacrifice to the Moon-god; throwing stones at the devil; fasting for the month which begins and ends with the crescent moon; giving alms to the poor, etc. The Muslim's claim that Allah is Yahweh and that Islam arose from the religion of the prophets and apostles is refuted by solid, overwhelming archeological evidence, and even if true, in the extreme off chance that ALL the archaeology is wrong, then it's false anyway, as we know full well where Yahweh came from, and his mythological origns. Islam is nothing more than an extension of an ancient Moon-god cult. It has taken the symbols, the rites, the ceremonies, and even the name of its god from the ancient religion of the Moon-god.

The first point of the Muslim creed is not, "Allah is great" but "Allah is the greatest," i.e., he is the greatest among the gods. Why would Muhammad say that Allah is the "greatest" except in a polytheistic context? The Arabic word is used to contrast the greater from the lesser. That this is true is seen from the fact that the Arabs never accused Muhammad of preaching a different Allah than the one they already worshipped. This "Allah" was the Moon-god according to the archeological evidence. Muhammad thus attempted to have it both ways. To his contemporaries, he said that he still believed in the Moon-god Allah. To the Jews and the Christians, he said that Allah was their god too. Muhammad was born into a family that worship the moon god, and was steeped in that tradition. He did not break from it. He enhanced, and extended it.

There are other, more esoteric, fundamental philosophical differences, between Judaism and Islam, which leads one to conclude that the godheads are not similar. In Judaism, originally a moral evil, (in the Garden myth), was something which was *not-Chaos*, ie the opposite of Chaos, (which was a common theme in the Sumerian myth system). The evil in the Garden myth was "attempting to encompass opposites, (ie Choas), or "be like a god"... the ability to "encompass the opposites". . In Islam, the overriding concept of evil is non-submission. Period. Islam means to "submit", (to the will of Allah). They are very different concepts. Thus the "revelation" of one,is fundamentally different from the other, NOT a "continuity". At the "last judgement" is very different. Jesus thought it was immanent in his lifetime. By the time of Muhammad, he appropriated the later concepts, as he would have no way of knowing what Jesus actually taught about.

From the apparent beginning, "the book", ie the Qur'an is the central organizing factor in the religion of Islam. No "book" was the central organizing factor in either Judaism or Christianity. The OT bible texts were NOT assembled in to one book, until very late in their history, and it was simply not available, (5% or less literacy rates), or important to Jews,until an organizing force was needed post Exile, and post Diaspora. Christianity preached the "good news", (according to St. Paul), but at the time he said that there were no gospel texts yet, and no organized collections of them, until much later. As we see in the Donner video, the "believers" or "believing community" is very similar to the early communities of Christians, ie believers who wrote their texts for their worship, (ie the gospels).

additional ref : Berta Segall, The Iconography of Cosmic Kingship, the Art Bulletin, vol.xxxviii, 1956, p.77

It is interesting, the general atmosphere that exists in the world today, with respect to any questioning of the tenets of Islam. At some level, obviously, Fundamentalists must perceive how insane their positions are, and thus are reflexively defensive. It was the same in the Medieval period for the Judean/Christian religions also. When the Bible was first discovered to contain errors, and contradictions there began a long history of cover-up, and persecution of scholars. Someone noticed in the 11th Century that the list of Edomite Kings, in Genesis actually lived and died after Moses, and he could not have possibly written the Pentateuch. This man was Isaac ibn Yashush. He was labeled Isaac the Blunderer, (much as Ehrman was labeled by Craig). He however proved to be right, and after saying his book should be burned, his labelor eventually said "And he who understands will keep silent". Eventually, however, truth did out, just as it will eventually, about the texts and claims in Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Donner



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD2STFZtw...ure=relmfu
http://www.al-bab.com/arab/literature/lit.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPnbd1VLm-4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jSq89TMflk
http://www.givingananswer.org/articles/koran.html#intro

Well developed Arabic poetry was flourishing well before the Qur'an was assembled. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_poetry ,
http://www.islamicedfoundation.com/material.htm ,
and the poetry of Muhammad exists within the context of a well developed poetry of the time. There is no "giant leap forward" in the poetry of Islam.
It is of phenomenal beauty, no doubt at all, but it exists within a context of beautiful poetry. As poetry, the Qur'an is not a unique work of poetry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ja%27far_Mu...h%C4%81kir

There are many well known mistakes in the "science" presented in the Qur'an, but it simply reflected the culture of it's day.
http://www.bibleandscience.com/science/quran.htm
but many amazing advances, also came from Arabic culture : http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/...zuQypeWReg ,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKLykao7U...re=related

Another interesting historical fact, is that during the early development of Islam, it seems, ((see the Donner, (U of Chicago) video)), that actual belief in the Qur'an was not the central organizing fact of his communities, but only, simply, monotheism. Jews and Christians were also members of "the believers". It's not until later, that the Califs
required organization around Islam, as an exclusive, and exclusionary boundary for a community.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliph

THE most important element of the faith, and Muhammad's central addition to his culture, was absolute monotheism. This idea had already arisen in human ideas, in Egypt, with Akhenaten, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten , (but was suppressed), and had a long history of development in Hebrew culture, but much of the Hebrew development was politically motivated, and we know that historical process, and was more monolaterist polytheism. Hebrew culture, and Christianity by the time of Muhammad, were also monotheistic.

Maybe Muhammad never really existed ?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUC5Su5P8D4 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRZtUHUifas , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6udiRzFO4Sk

Why is all this unknown, for the most part ? It's because, as Dr. Ehrman said in his video discussion forgery in the New Testament, when someone asked him why he didn't do a book on the Qur'an, he said "ya well when I stop valuing my life, maybe I'll work on that".

You, db, are a dot-connecting ignoramus, with no background in the period or cultures. NONE of this is based on Morey. None of this are you capable of refuting.


Bucky, I really think we are at cross purposes.

I don't dispute what you say about Islam being piggybacked onto an Arabic moon-god religion.

But, you can't then say, as you do that "Islam is NOT an "Abrahamic religion". That is a religious claim.... There is no known pattern or tradition about any prophet named Abraham in Arabic culture until Islam was cooked up."

Yes, "cooked up" Islam is Abrahamic. The Koran clearly is referenced to Abraham as its patriarch. I expect the Koran was written in Saana by Arabic clerics which is where the oldest version of it was found. However, the way Muslims perceive their religion is as one of three Abrahamic religions and they observe rituals of an Abrahamic religion, as well as Arabic pagan ones, such as circulating around a meteorite.

Similarly, "cooked up" Christianity is Hellenistic and departs from a previous tradition of the people the NT is addressed to who APPEAR to ME (and perhaps me alone, btw, I can live with that!) as being people who were still being fed a pagan rather than what we today would recognize as a "Jewish" religion. What it was, I don't know. I only put forward some observations of similarities between the Jesus story and its motifs and Egyptian Horus worship. I don't see why that necessitates personal comments about me other than you don't "get" my method or my sense of humour.

If you applied the same reasoning to Christianity you would say it was the religion of the people to whom it was being preached, and cooked up for (who weren't modern Jews) just as you say that Islam is actually a moon-god cult because that is what people were before the Koran.
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25-08-2016, 05:05 AM (This post was last modified: 25-08-2016 01:03 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Egyptian paganism
(25-08-2016 01:34 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I don't dispute what you say about Islam being piggybacked onto an Arabic moon-god religion.

But, you can't then say, as you do that "Islam is NOT an "Abrahamic religion". That is a religious claim.... There is no known pattern or tradition about any prophet named Abraham in Arabic culture until Islam was cooked up."

Yes, "cooked up" Islam is Abrahamic. The Koran clearly is referenced to Abraham as its patriarch. I expect the Koran was written in Saana by Arabic clerics which is where the oldest version of it was found. However, the way Muslims perceive their religion is as one of three Abrahamic religions and they observe rituals of an Abrahamic religion, as well as Arabic pagan ones, such as circulating around a meteorite.

Just as I thought. You can refute nothing. You did attempt it, as you posted that Wiki link. It is not in any way really originally Abrahamic. The CLAIM is that it's Abrahamic. There was no Abraham for it to reference. That is ALL religious bullshit. All the rest of your dot connecting is irrelevant, and just as I thought YOU can refute none of the real history. You attempted it with that link you posted and also said my ideas are based on Morey. Now when it's laid out and you have to actually read it, you back off.

You exposed your real (scary) self last weekend with that stuff about global warming. You are insane. Your bullshit is NOT based on history and scholarship. We are NOTHING alike. After reading what you posted about global warming, anyone can see your type of insanity is not even worth replying to, or dealing with in any way. Buh bye. I hope you get help. You need it.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-08-2016, 11:12 AM (This post was last modified: 25-08-2016 01:04 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Egyptian paganism
(21-08-2016 07:15 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Muslims in real life follow rituals which are Abrahamic. Abraham is the Patriarch of Islam. No one sane disputes that. Only about three percent of Muslims today have read the Koran so their religious practices come from tradition not the Koran or Moon worship. Go live in a Muslim country and stop talking pure nonsense.

What, exactly, are these "rituals" you speak of, and how is it you have decided they are "Abrahamic", (and tell us what that even means, exactly) ?

Islam *claimed* (the mythological) Abraham as a patriarch, as it was their common practice to assert that any monotheistic god they encountered was equivalent to Allah. Historically it's a false claim, as Allah had entirely different origins from Yahweh, (and they both came from polytheistic cultures). Yahweh was the Babylonian war deity. Allah was NOT. They were different gods. The Abrahamic claim was an attempt to gloss over the historical facts. Only in a very superficial "we also have a prophet named Abraham" are they both Abrahamic. There is no Arabic tradition of Abraham as a patriarch until Islam cooked up the claim to try to artificially claim a false similarity/relationship, (and you can present so such evidence for any precursor tradition).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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26-08-2016, 12:27 AM
RE: Egyptian paganism
(21-08-2016 07:15 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Only about three percent of Muslims today have read the Koran so their religious practices come from tradition not the Koran or Moon worship. Go live in a Muslim country and stop talking pure nonsense.

Can you back up this quote? It seemed a bit odd to me, but I googled and found lots of support for the idea that many Muslims haven't read the Quran. Where did the 3 percent figure come from?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-08-2016, 03:07 PM
RE: Egyptian paganism
I read the figure somewhere a while ago but I can't remember where. I will see if I can find it.

The Koran is said to be the word of Allah so it has to be read in Arabic. I understood that translating it was un-Islamic so virtually no Muslim reads it in his own language. Part of the allure of the Koran is supposed to be the way it sounds when read in Arabic and that can't be replicated in other languages so what I am talking about is that only a tiny portion of Muslims have read the Koran in it's original form.

Here is one blogger who explains this phenomenon: http://daledamos.blogspot.com.cy/2006/10...quran.html

I have a Muslim friend with an MA. He pulled out his Koran and said to me "this book contains everything you need to know in life". I said "have you read it" and he replied "no, not a word of it".

I live in a Muslim society near to the Syrian war zone and no one talks about religion at all. It is like a cult but one where people just drift along saying they are Muslims while they have a smoke, drink and drive around in big cars. No one has preached at me, come to my door trying to get me to convert, read their book etc. The only real evidence of the religion is that they observe the religious holidays and there is loudspeaker calling them to prayer five times a day, but no one goes. It's a very odd religion and I get the feeling it was like an ancient Communist Manifesto used to unite underprivileged desert Arabs against an overbearing Christian/proto-European/Roman/Hittite/Armenian or whatever other feudal empire was driving people into the ground at the time. It's very anti-Western in its day to day operation but there's very little outward signs of it anywhere in ordinary life. I think that is why what is going on with ISIS is such a headfuck. You wonder why ordinary Muslims aren't saying anything against it. Well, who knows. Probably most of them are used to being suppressed from time immemorial by somebody and have become genetically modified into creatures who don't open their mouths. More likely, they just don't actually know or care from f.ck about it and have jobs to do before going home for a drink and a kebab.
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