Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
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31-10-2014, 06:08 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 05:59 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 05:54 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  Regardless of what an atheist responds to the Merits of Paedophilia (discussion about it is against the forum rules by the way, link at the bottom), it will still only be their opinion and not an absolute universal moral truth.

In other words, you don't believe it is universally true that child abuse is wrong... which as you see is my beef with atheism... and 90 percent of the world disagrees with you heartily.

Quote:If it were an absolute universal moral truth that child abuse was bad then it would not be common place in certain Islamic cultures to have forced marriages to pre-pubescent girls.

So you don't think they are simply "wrong" and that it is universally true... which world do you think a child would feel safer in... the one that said it is ALWAYS wrong, or the one that says its sometimes good?

It doesn't matter about the non-existant world you're trying to use as an example.
Here in this world, there are people who do not believe it is wrong.
It is not univeral, or objective, or absolute truth.
Period.
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31-10-2014, 06:16 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 06:02 PM)natachan Wrote:  If you would like to talk intelligently about morality I'm a moral absolutist and an atheist. I would love to discuss it. However you don't seem interested in that, only in trolling and spouting your garbage.

Sure lets discuss it... An HONEST OBSERVATION is not trolling... its talking about fundamental disagreements, and wondering how an atheist justifies their stance. It is important to realize the ramifications of our philosophies. Im not at all intimidated to discuss MY beliefs, but I don't believe this is the case here with atheists. Whats wrong with pointing out the obvious differences and discussing them?
Nothing... its certainly fair when you do it regarding your disagreements with religion...
Now lets got off this immature trolling BULLSHIT, and talk like reasonable people who disagree.

Do you agree with me that child abuse is ALWAYS, universally and absolutely wrong, or do you not believe in universal absolute moral truth?
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31-10-2014, 06:18 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 05:15 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  This is my last thread... and the reason the first 2 were used as a base... Here's my beef with Atheism... aside from the fact they don't seem to be as receptive to critical thought as they say they are, and some of them seem a bit paranoid charging someone with trolling simply because they disagree and want to discuss it...

You don't believe in universal absolute truths. This was the reason for the 2nd thread... to demonstrate that you don't with your own words.

This means I can say with assurance and conviction that no matter the time, no matter the place, no matter the circumstance, no matter if anyone agrees with it or not, Child Abuse and Rape is ALWAYS WRONG... but you cant say this with conviction because it is an absolute universal truth. Location in time and space mean nothing... child abuse and rape is not good. Circumstances mean nothing, social acceptance means nothing except the perps are WRONG if they deem it to be a good thing.

Since the atheist doesn't believe in universal absolute truth... you cant say this as I can and hold to it as a conviction. If you were to say "Child abuse is NEVER GOOD"... you would be admitting to an absolute truth, which you claim doesn't exist.

Dude, your thinking lacks depth and nuance, you have no idea where morals come from, and you're running scared.

Morals are a social construct erected on a base of evolved moral sense and empathy, We could agree that in all societies, everywhere, always, that the unwarranted harm of another human is wrong. That does not make it a universal truth, just a common one.

You need to read some books; real ones, not crap from apologists.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-10-2014, 06:21 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 06:16 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  Do you agree with me that child abuse is ALWAYS, universally and absolutely wrong, or do you not believe in universal absolute moral truth?

For the millionth time.

False dilemma.

False dilemma.

FALSE DILEMMA

"Behind every great pirate, there is a great butt."
-Guybrush Threepwood-
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31-10-2014, 06:27 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 06:03 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Hello! Big Grin

Sorry am late, just got up and different time zones and all. *Waves*

(31-10-2014 05:51 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  .........Do you believe it is universally and absolutely moral truth that it is ALWAYS wrong to *Redacted so as to follow forum guide-lines*,

No, it is NOT an absolute moral truth.

(31-10-2014 05:51 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  .... Or do you agree with me that absolute moral truth universally exists despite public opinion?

No, I do not agree with you that absolute moral truth exists.


The world at large is not made up in binary. it is not black and white. It does NOT consist of 'Either/or' statements.

Adults understand that there are many varied shades of grey present in the real world. I believe neurosciences have done studies to show that this faculty to see things BEYOND black and white only really develops after the age of five in humans.

Hope that helps on clearing up our differences.

Edit: Upon further reflection. Perhaps you (Wolfbitn) should change the second part of your opening comment/statement to something other... like "Killing kitties" or"Drowning puppies".

Of course, as has been pointed out, a theists supposed basis for absolute moral truths already kills children, kittens and puppies... So, there's that.

Unless... perchance... you are seeking nothing other than to stoke the fires of indignation?

Much cheers to all.

Thank you for addressing the topic! Good talking to you. I'll be the first to admit its a hard question, but it is good to question even our very own beliefs and put them to the test.... I appreciate this about you and the fact you spoke up clearly about what you believe...

Ok... you don't believe in absolute moral truth, you were very clear. So if the it isn't true that Child abuse is NEVER GOOD, please give me an example of when it IS good?
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31-10-2014, 06:28 PM (This post was last modified: 31-10-2014 06:35 PM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
Oh hello Tsun Tsu. I see you didn't learn a thing from my counterargunent that I gave to you at AF yesterday. You also seem to have carried over the habit of ignoring people's points when you no longer know how to counter them.

Somehow, I'm not surprised.

Edit: posted wrong link, this is the right one: http://atheistforums.org/thread-29414.html

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31-10-2014, 06:32 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 06:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 05:15 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  This is my last thread... and the reason the first 2 were used as a base... Here's my beef with Atheism... aside from the fact they don't seem to be as receptive to critical thought as they say they are, and some of them seem a bit paranoid charging someone with trolling simply because they disagree and want to discuss it...

You don't believe in universal absolute truths. This was the reason for the 2nd thread... to demonstrate that you don't with your own words.

This means I can say with assurance and conviction that no matter the time, no matter the place, no matter the circumstance, no matter if anyone agrees with it or not, Child Abuse and Rape is ALWAYS WRONG... but you cant say this with conviction because it is an absolute universal truth. Location in time and space mean nothing... child abuse and rape is not good. Circumstances mean nothing, social acceptance means nothing except the perps are WRONG if they deem it to be a good thing.

Since the atheist doesn't believe in universal absolute truth... you cant say this as I can and hold to it as a conviction. If you were to say "Child abuse is NEVER GOOD"... you would be admitting to an absolute truth, which you claim doesn't exist.

Dude, your thinking lacks depth and nuance, you have no idea where morals come from, and you're running scared.

Im not the one running scared Smile Im the one PROUDLY saying child abuse is ALWAYS wrong despite anyone's opinion... and you disagree.

Quote:Morals are a social construct erected on a base of evolved moral sense and empathy, We could agree that in all societies, everywhere, always, that the unwarranted harm of another human is wrong. That does not make it a universal truth, just a common one.

If you don't agree with me that child abuse is NEVER GOOD despite a social construct condoning it, explain to me why you simply don't believe THEY are WRONG, and also please explain when it is GOOD to abuse a child... if its NEVER good then this IS a universal absolute moral truth

Quote:You need to read some books; real ones, not crap from apologists.

I obviously don't read apologists... cant stand them. In my opinion most of them are as wrong as you are when you say theres no absolute truth Wink

I go to the sources whenever possible, not some blogger.
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31-10-2014, 06:32 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 06:28 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  Oh hello Tsun Tsu. I see you didn't learn a thing from my counterargunent that I gave to you at AF yesterday. You also seem to have carried over the habit of ignoring people's points when you no longer know how to counter them.

Somehow, I'm not surprised.


http://atheistforums.org/thread-29411.html
Like which one? Wink
Im afraid its the other way around Smile ...but feel free to point one out.
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31-10-2014, 06:34 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 06:21 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 06:16 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  Do you agree with me that child abuse is ALWAYS, universally and absolutely wrong, or do you not believe in universal absolute moral truth?

For the millionth time.

False dilemma.

False dilemma.

FALSE DILEMMA

Youre ignoring the question... Do you agree with me that child abuse is ALWAYS, universally and absolutely wrong, or do you not believe in universal absolute moral truth?
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31-10-2014, 06:35 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 06:27 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 06:03 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Hello! Big Grin

Sorry am late, just got up and different time zones and all. *Waves*


No, it is NOT an absolute moral truth.


No, I do not agree with you that absolute moral truth exists.


The world at large is not made up in binary. it is not black and white. It does NOT consist of 'Either/or' statements.

Adults understand that there are many varied shades of grey present in the real world. I believe neurosciences have done studies to show that this faculty to see things BEYOND black and white only really develops after the age of five in humans.

Hope that helps on clearing up our differences.

Edit: Upon further reflection. Perhaps you (Wolfbitn) should change the second part of your opening comment/statement to something other... like "Killing kitties" or"Drowning puppies".

Of course, as has been pointed out, a theists supposed basis for absolute moral truths already kills children, kittens and puppies... So, there's that.

Unless... perchance... you are seeking nothing other than to stoke the fires of indignation?

Much cheers to all.

Thank you for addressing the topic! Good talking to you. I'll be the first to admit its a hard question, but it is good to question even our very own beliefs and put them to the test.... I appreciate this about you and the fact you spoke up clearly about what you believe...

Ok... you don't believe in absolute moral truth, you were very clear. So if the it isn't true that Child abuse is NEVER GOOD, please give me an example of when it IS good?

This isn't a hard question.. it's been done to death and shown how it's obviously not a hard to think out situation if you engage in various morality arguments like the trolley dilemma or game theory analyzing.

Of course, let's go to the extreme hypothetical. A man has a control over a mass of nuclear arms and demands you to rape a child in front of him or else he will unleash the flurry of weapons across the world potentially ending all human life. If one values sentient life surviving, the choice of raping the child is better than letting humanity be destroyed. It's a the group vs individual suffering type of argument.

In counter, do you think it's wrong to let humanity die in favor of not raping one child?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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