Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
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31-10-2014, 07:04 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 06:51 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 06:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  As expected, you did not understand what I said. Murder, rape, child abuse, theft, mayhem, and so on are considered wrong in every human society. The boundaries of the definitions vary a bit.

But that is true because of our evolved social instincts.

Where do your absolutes exist? If there were no humans, would those absolutes exist?

Here is the difference between us dude... You consider it a social standard and you believe the social standard determines whether or not abuse is wrong. I say it is ALWAYS WRONG universally and absolutely and those who deem it good are simply very wrong. That is how we differ.

I believe the universally moral truth is larger than society or even the world as do ALL theists to my knowledge. Don't you believe people can be "wrong" in their morals? Don't you agree with me those who deem child abuse as good, are simply wrong and that this doesn't make it good, and there is no tipping point where it BECOMES good? If you do, you believe in absolute universal moral truth.

I said social construct, not social standard - they are very different.

We might all agree that something is always bad, but that does not make it universal - it makes it human.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-10-2014, 07:04 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 06:40 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 06:27 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  Thank you for addressing the topic! Good talking to you. I'll be the first to admit its a hard question, but it is good to question even our very own beliefs and put them to the test.... I appreciate this about you and the fact you spoke up clearly about what you believe...

Thanks and, in case I missed it, welcome to the forums. Big Grin

(31-10-2014 06:27 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  Ok... you don't believe in absolute moral truth, you were very clear.

There's a subtle loss of nuance here.

I do not think absolute moral truth exists.

This is NOT the same statement as above. I can believe in absolute moral truth, much the same way i can believe in unicrons (Well... one Unicron) etc... but believing in something does not make it true.

Hope that helps.

(31-10-2014 06:27 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  So if the it isn't true that *Redacted t comply with forum guide-lines*, please give me an example of when it IS good?

When it IS good? How about the places in the world (As has been mentioned before,IN thread) where it is practiced. Or where it HAS been practiced? So... there's two examples for you. Hence your [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma"]False Dilemma[/url], again as has been pointed out to you previously before in the thread.

Again, I really do appreciate you talking about this and reasoning with me... Thank you Smile

So in the instance you give me here, you believe that child abuse in this particular situation is good? Because in some parts of the world it is practiced? You don't insist that they are simply morally wrong and it is absolutely WRONG? I'm not being incredulous, I'm clarifying so I don't misrepresent you.

Quote:Also, as I pointed out on the backs of others.. (Assuming)Your theistic beliefs are based on some overbearing being, then THAT being's actions which have included the deaths of kittens and puppies CANNOT thence be absolutely morally true... Since we find the killing of kitties and puppies to be something to revile.

Yes this overbearing being would be the one who is insisting that child abuse is wrong... ALWAYS. Whereas your view holds that sometimes its good. Which prevailing view do you think would make a child feel most secure? The one saying its sometimes good or the one saying its never good?

Quote:I re-post that: "Adults understand that there are many varied shades of grey present in the real world. I believe neurosciences have done studies to show that this faculty to see things BEYOND black and white only really develops after the age of five in humans."

I honestly don't believe in many shades of grey. I believe truth exists, I believe lies exist. I believe its black and white that child abuse is always wrong.

Quote:Your statements seem to be nothing BUT hard, black and white statements with no nuances oi grey. You also seem to insist that others respond to you in the same binary way.

As in... yes child abuse is ALWAYS wrong Smile I AM proud of my belief and to be able to just say this with conviction.... not to sound superior whatsoever... just to share it is a freedom within itself to know there are these constants that are nurturing and protective.

Quote:Dang but thinking this early in the morning with no coffee sucks. Tongue

Hope that helps further things.

Much cheers to all.

Much cheers to you too my friend. My coffee is the evening dark roast pop yer eyes wide open coffee lol.. Have a good cup on me
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31-10-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 07:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 06:51 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  Here is the difference between us dude... You consider it a social standard and you believe the social standard determines whether or not abuse is wrong. I say it is ALWAYS WRONG universally and absolutely and those who deem it good are simply very wrong. That is how we differ.

I believe the universally moral truth is larger than society or even the world as do ALL theists to my knowledge. Don't you believe people can be "wrong" in their morals? Don't you agree with me those who deem child abuse as good, are simply wrong and that this doesn't make it good, and there is no tipping point where it BECOMES good? If you do, you believe in absolute universal moral truth.

I said social construct, not social standard - they are very different.

We might all agree that something is always bad, but that does not make it universal - it makes it human.

To say child abuse is NEVER good is in fact both universal and absolute. Time or space doesn't effect the wrongness of it, and it is absolutely true in every case... this is a universal absolute moral truth. If its true that it is NEVER good it is ABSOLUTELY true... it is then a moral that transcends both social acceptance or popular opinion... It is still wrong even if every human on earth said it was good. So how do you justify a universal moral absolute truth? How is it that a truth exists that transcends man?
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31-10-2014, 07:11 PM (This post was last modified: 31-10-2014 07:15 PM by Wolfbitn.)
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 06:52 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 06:46 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  I am going to issue a challenge. The next one that says I'm just a troll, or don't know my science, or don't know math... be prepared to take me on in a one on one debate. I hereby challenge the next one who makes such a claim. The debate:

"God created" is more scientifically sound and MUCH better tested AND fared better in testing, than the Big Bang/String theory.

I will defend "God created", YOU defend Big Bang/String... open challenge and definiately applies to anyone who thinks my science isn't up to yours.

Now... back to the topic..

You guys need to know this isn't personal, so you don't have to continue tryint to MAKE it personal... Iv not insulted a one of you and I don't intend to. I'm here to talk

I TOLD YOU I had honest points of discussion and HONEST CHALLENGES to your belief. I never lied to you and that's why I'm here... to TALK about these differences and discuss their ramifications.

The fact that 90 percent of the world differs with you on absolute moral truth doesn't mean we are right, but it should give you pause to consider HONESTLY what all this really means...

It MEANS that you cant say child abuse is always universally and absolutely wrong, but a theist can and MEAN IT. I'm very sorry, I do know its not a pleasant thought, but it IS the truth and a troll wouldn't take the time to TALK and REASON...

So ...can anyone think of a situation where child abuse is GOOD? Or do you agree it is universally and absolutely wrong?

Wow, way to ignore every single thing everyone said in this thread.

And yes, here's a situation: child abuse is good for people who think it is good. Not for me. How is that a problem now?

Point out one single thing iv ignored and then point out where you've answered a question in this thread until just now Smile
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31-10-2014, 07:12 PM (This post was last modified: 31-10-2014 07:17 PM by Wolfbitn.)
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
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31-10-2014, 07:13 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 07:11 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 06:52 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Wow, way to ignore every single thing everyone said in this thread.

And yes, here's a situation: child abuse is good for people who think it is good. Not for me. How is that a problem now?

Point out one single thing iv ignored and then point out where you've answered a question in this thread Smile

I've done that before but it didn't work, did it?

Not to mention it happened just now. You quote my answer to your question and say something irrelevant.

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31-10-2014, 07:16 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 05:15 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  This is my last thread... and the reason the first 2 were used as a base... Here's my beef with Atheism... aside from the fact they don't seem to be as receptive to critical thought as they say they are, and some of them seem a bit paranoid charging someone with trolling simply because they disagree and want to discuss it...

You don't believe in universal absolute truths. This was the reason for the 2nd thread... to demonstrate that you don't with your own words.

This means I can say with assurance and conviction that no matter the time, no matter the place, no matter the circumstance, no matter if anyone agrees with it or not, Child Abuse and Rape is ALWAYS WRONG... but you cant say this with conviction because it is an absolute universal truth. Location in time and space mean nothing... child abuse and rape is not good. Circumstances mean nothing, social acceptance means nothing except the perps are WRONG if they deem it to be a good thing.

Since the atheist doesn't believe in universal absolute truth... you cant say this as I can and hold to it as a conviction. If you were to say "Child abuse is NEVER GOOD"... you would be admitting to an absolute truth, which you claim doesn't exist.

Hey brain bitten.
Define "child abuse".
Since every human being has different ideas about what that means, exactly,
and where the boundaries are exactly, there goes your shit out the window.
Please keep you absolute promise that this is your absolute last post.
Absolute fucking idiot.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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31-10-2014, 07:17 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 07:10 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 07:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  I said social construct, not social standard - they are very different.

We might all agree that something is always bad, but that does not make it universal - it makes it human.

To say child abuse is NEVER good is in fact both universal and absolute. Time or space doesn't effect the wrongness of it, and it is absolutely true in every case... this is a universal absolute moral truth. If its true that it is NEVER good it is ABSOLUTELY true... it is then a moral that transcends both social acceptance or popular opinion... It is still wrong even if every human on earth said it was good. So how do you justify a universal moral absolute truth? How is it that a truth exists that transcends man?

What? That's your stance, not mine. How do you justify it?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-10-2014, 07:18 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 05:15 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  This is my last thread...

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

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31-10-2014, 07:19 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 06:16 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 06:02 PM)natachan Wrote:  If you would like to talk intelligently about morality I'm a moral absolutist and an atheist. I would love to discuss it. However you don't seem interested in that, only in trolling and spouting your garbage.

Sure lets discuss it... An HONEST OBSERVATION is not trolling... its talking about fundamental disagreements, and wondering how an atheist justifies their stance. It is important to realize the ramifications of our philosophies. Im not at all intimidated to discuss MY beliefs, but I don't believe this is the case here with atheists. Whats wrong with pointing out the obvious differences and discussing them?
Nothing... its certainly fair when you do it regarding your disagreements with religion...
Now lets got off this immature trolling BULLSHIT, and talk like reasonable people who disagree.

Do you agree with me that child abuse is ALWAYS, universally and absolutely wrong, or do you not believe in universal absolute moral truth?

Where does morality come from? What makes an action moral or immoral? These are questions that must be answered before we can answer yours.

Morality is adherence to a set of values, as simply as can be stated. Is it universal? One can argue that these values are universal to a species, but no further. While we might consider infanticide immoral there are species where in certain circumstances it would be completely moral. We consider canniblism immoral, but many other species don't
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