Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
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31-10-2014, 07:46 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 07:32 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  P.S. Change the line to kitties and puppies, please? It makes things so much easier.
It would probably be easier (and less likely to get the thread locked at some point) but I don't think "drowning kittens/ puppies" is an equal equivalent to "child abuse."

A kid is still a person, you can't "partially drown" somebody (Edit: You totally can partially drown somebody. I looked it up. I had thought that drowning was some variation on "death via immersion and suffication in liquid. The other points still stand.) but you can inflict a lesser form of abuse onto a child. Harming a child has different long term consequences to killing a puppy. And on and on and on.

As it is I think it's best to discuss this using the "child abuse" hypothetical.

Sorry.
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31-10-2014, 07:47 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 07:26 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 07:16 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Hey brain bitten.
Define "child abuse".
Since every human being has different ideas about what that means, exactly,
and where the boundaries are exactly, there goes your shit out the window.
Please keep you absolute promise that this is your absolute last post.
Absolute fucking idiot.

I say any abuse of a child is wrong... that's simple enough isn't it?
Lets make this easy and you tell me what types of child abuse you find acceptable and good.

No it isn't. Not at all.
Since you live under a rock, there is currently a famous case. Ever hear of Adrian Peterson ?
He beat his kid with a tree branch. Many do not agree that was abuse.
So do try just a wee bit harder there, big guy.
There's nothing absolute about this at all.
Oh well. Better luck next time.
http://www.tmz.com/2014/09/12/adrian-pet...ild-abuse/

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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31-10-2014, 07:47 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 07:43 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  Heya, and thanks very much again Smile

One poster has said this "And yes, here's a situation: child abuse is good for people who think it is good. Not for me. How is that a problem now?"

So yes some replies ARE saying this. Here's the point. If something is true without exception, regardless of time, location, circumstance or popular opinion and social construct, It is universally absolutely true. Easy right? The atheists who have spoken up for the most part admit they don't believe in absolute universal moral truth. "It is never good to abuse a child" is a moral absolute, universal truth in my opinion, regardless of any social acceptance or opinion. If one believes there is no exception they believe in absolute universal truth. If they don't believe in universal truth, they are left to explain when child abuse would be deemed "good". I see this as quite a moral dilemma. Several have stated that its ok to those who deem it ok... I just posted one of the quotes, so we cant say this philosophy doesn't exist among atheists, and it is the antithesis of the opinion of 90 percent of the world.

For these reasons and more, I believe this is worth taking an honest second look to consider the ramifications...

No more time to reply currently, sorry.

The immediate point that comes across is that the use of language of yourself is not... consistent.

Also, your proposed definition has since been expanded upon from its original posting.

Also, you are not replying to certain posts, even when asked to.

Much cheers to all.
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31-10-2014, 07:51 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 07:46 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 07:32 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  P.S. Change the line to kitties and puppies, please? It makes things so much easier.
It would probably be easier (and less likely to get the thread locked at some point) but I don't think "drowning kittens/ puppies" is an equal equivalent to "child abuse."

A kid is still a person, you can't "partially drown" somebody (Yes. There's a colloquialism that says otherwise. Don't care.) but you can inflict a lesser form of abuse onto a child. Harming a child has different long term consequences to killing a puppy. And on and on and on.

As it is I think it's best to discuss this using the "child abuse" hypothetical.

Sorry.

No worries.

I, however (I am making an assumption), am more of the belief that the original poster is doing nothing more than creating a "Dog wagging exercise" so as to create controversy etc for their own potential amusement. Blush

Which is a sort of horrible thing to say... but an honest portrayal of my thoughts.

Much cheers to all.
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31-10-2014, 08:06 PM (This post was last modified: 31-10-2014 08:23 PM by Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue.)
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
Edit: Can anybody else see this post? It's not showing up in the thread for me. Edit 2.0: Fixed it
(31-10-2014 07:47 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 07:26 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  I say any abuse of a child is wrong... that's simple enough isn't it?
Lets make this easy and you tell me what types of child abuse you find acceptable and good.
Thank you again Bucky. Got me to reread this (and assuming he's being honest) I can reiterate what the problem is and be clearer.
If we don't understand what you mean by "abuse." Saying "any form of abuse" doesn't communicate anything.

Define "abuse." Define "good."

(31-10-2014 07:51 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 07:46 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  It would probably be easier (and less likely to get the thread locked at some point) but I don't think "drowning kittens/ puppies" is an equal equivalent to "child abuse."

A kid is still a person, you can't "partially drown" somebody (Yes. There's a colloquialism that says otherwise. Don't care.) but you can inflict a lesser form of abuse onto a child. Harming a child has different long term consequences to killing a puppy. And on and on and on.

As it is I think it's best to discuss this using the "child abuse" hypothetical.

Sorry.

No worries.

I, however (I am making an assumption), am more of the belief that the original poster is doing nothing more than creating a "Dog wagging exercise" so as to create controversy etc for their own potential amusement. Blush

Which is a sort of horrible thing to say... but an honest portrayal of my thoughts.
It's not horrible if it turns out to be true. I'm leaning towards agreeing at the moment.
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31-10-2014, 08:18 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 07:30 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 07:17 PM)Chas Wrote:  What? That's your stance, not mine. How do you justify it?

God made it universally true that child abuse is always wrong in my opinion Smile And why is your stance not the same as mine then? I thought you said child abuse was never good? Now youre saying that's wrong? Or you agree that child abuse is universally absolutely NEVER morally GOOD ? Im confused as to your opinion now, what is it?

Interesting that your opinion is "god" makes it universally true. Have you read the Bible?

Lot offering his virgin daughters to be gang raped because the men in the town wanted to have anal sex Ohmy with the gods male angels in the house. And later the daughters got Lot drunk and had incestuous cave sex.

Or how about all of the sex slaves where the daughters were sold by their fathers?
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

So if there is no gray, and god is "True" and universally moral, then you have no problems with daddies selling their daughters to horny old men? The bible condones it. It's universally true, right?


I'm modifying a quote by you - this is my beef with theists (except for not all theists think the same, either.... I'll let you think about that). I don't appreciate being placed in a box. "Ah HA! Checkmate atheists! You don't believe in absolute Truth so you must condone pedos!!" No, I don't condone child abuse, and I'm fairly certain you don't condone sex slavery. It doesn't take absolute moral truth for me to say it's wrong. Think about societal evolution. Our morals evolved with what is beneficial to society at large. There are mountains of threads on the discussion of morals. I don't think it's necessary for me to expound upon the negative effects of child abuse upon society and individuals and burden the readers of this forum.


And for shits and giggles, I probably could come up with some scenarios where it's ok to kill sweet little kitties and puppies. But I'll spare everyone.
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31-10-2014, 08:29 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
Is the act you call child abuse absolutely the same act, the same degree of pain, the same punch, the same excessive spanking ? No it's absolutely not.

It varies from case to case.
You want to label something that varies as being absolutely the same thing.

I can judge an act that is harmful to a child and then look at the circumstances surrounding how the child was harmed.
Examples - a child that is 6 yrs old throws a rock into a crowd of kids on the playground. One of the kids is struck in the eye and has a bruise.
An adult opens a door and accidentally hits a child in the nose.
An adult pinches a kids arm everyday he or she is late to class.
A child pinches another child with some tweezers he brought from home and then begins to taunt that child every day with something causing harm, both physical and mental.

Absolute truth doesn't define all of these actions as absolutely the same, so you can't use absolute truth to judge anything.

The idea of absolute truth is just an illusion of words to make it appear as if you have a base of morality when you really don't.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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31-10-2014, 08:31 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
(31-10-2014 06:51 PM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 06:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  As expected, you did not understand what I said. Murder, rape, child abuse, theft, mayhem, and so on are considered wrong in every human society. The boundaries of the definitions vary a bit.

But that is true because of our evolved social instincts.

Where do your absolutes exist? If there were no humans, would those absolutes exist?

Here is the difference between us dude... You consider it a social standard and you believe the social standard determines whether or not abuse is wrong. I say it is ALWAYS WRONG universally and absolutely and those who deem it good are simply very wrong. That is how we differ.

I believe the universally moral truth is larger than society or even the world as do ALL theists to my knowledge. Don't you believe people can be "wrong" in their morals? Don't you agree with me those who deem child abuse as good, are simply wrong and that this doesn't make it good, and there is no tipping point where it BECOMES good? If you do, you believe in absolute universal moral truth.


What is wrong today wasn't wrong 3000 years ago, 500 years ago, 100 years ago and even 50 years ago. Morals have changed, truths have changed.

Thirty years ago it was considered immoral by many Americans for a white woman to marry a black man and it was illegal in many states. Some still consider it immoral.

In ancient Assyria a married man who raped a virgin was considered a criminal but it was his wife who paid the penalty. The law said that she should be given up to be raped by the victim's father.

In Biblical times a husband could rape his wife. It would have been considered insane for a husband to be charged with this crime but today women can bring their husbands to court charging them with rape. It doesn't happen often but there are presidents.

And READ your damned Bible. There are numerous rapes, incest and killings that today would have been criminal but were unquestioned even accepted then.

In Babylon a slave girl could be raped with just a small fine to be paid like it was a traffic ticket. The rapist went on with his life without any guilt at all. After all it was just a slave girl.

So you see, rape and abuse has changed over time. It was accepted in Biblical times and throughout many cultures because women were mostly worthless.

Women have had to fight to gain worth. Today women can buy a car without their husband or father co-signing . Believe it or not, as little as 25-30 years ago this was hard to accomplish. Many dealers wouldn't sell a car to a single women. Sixty years ago a woman couldn't buy a car on her own even with a co-signer. It was considered indecent and shocking.

Fortunately, secular laws have straightened out most of this nonsense.

Truth changes and with it laws change. I don't know how old you are but read some history books, fella or madam, as the case may be.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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31-10-2014, 08:55 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
Oh what a fun circle we have spinning here..
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31-10-2014, 09:04 PM
RE: Either Universal Truth Exists, or Child Abuse and Rape is Sometimes Good
Why did I just spend 30 minutes reading eight pages of this shit? He is so full of fallacies his eyes are brown. Typical theist, cherry-picking what he wants to address while ignoring the parts he doesn't like.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
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