ElevatorGate, Feminism, and all that good stuff...
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13-07-2011, 07:13 PM
RE: ElevatorGate
(13-07-2011 05:36 PM)DeepThought Wrote:  I think it's the "thanks for showing your misogyny" line that created most of the backlash against her.

Oh. I missed that line. Still, if it was delivered in the same casual, reasonable tone as the clips i did notice, the most i would i think is, "Maybe she's overreacting. Everything doesn't have to be a feminist issue." But i wouldn't get up on an internet soapbox to yell and swear about it. In fact, i would have no reason to care - or even consider it any of my business. So why did this guy - who is in no way involved - go ballistic? Unless it really is a feminist issue? I wonder...

But maybe it's just a too-small-a-wold issue, wherein everyone thinks everyone else's opinions and reactions to everything are their business. Like we owned all the strangers on Facebook and Youtube. Maybe we just need to get lives?


Quote: Yes, that bothers me too. As well as the willingness to polarize over little things, which is also a trait known among religious sects. Sometimes I think we aren't so much fighting religion as we are fighting human nature... I don't know.

I don't think fighting religion is a job for an army - which we don't have and can never muster anyway - or confrontation in general. If religion ever loses its power, it will be from indifference and redundancy, not frontal attack.

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13-07-2011, 07:26 PM
RE: ElevatorGate
Sometimes I think we aren't so much fighting religion as we are fighting human nature... I don't know.

I agree entirely with that line. Entirely. I strongly believe that religion itself is part of human nature. To want to be part of the group, to all share the same beliefs. We have evolved this way. That's why we always seem surprised that atheists can be just as petty and ignorant as the religious. It doesn't seem like something we should be doing. But we do it too. We're just like them about something that isn't religion, luckily for us though our passion and ignorance doesn't typically get hundreds of thousands of people killed.

Yet still we do the squabbling and bickering they do, we battle one another over a belief here and there. And we make news out of pointless drivel for some reason.

Sad face... Sad

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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13-07-2011, 09:37 PM (This post was last modified: 13-07-2011 09:42 PM by Peterkin.)
RE: ElevatorGate
(13-07-2011 07:11 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  Guy asked girl for coffee and girl freaks out about women power? I don't get it? Shouldn't she take what happened as a compliment?

I didn't get the whole thing either, but 1.) The asking was by a stranger, in an elevator, at 4am, for coffee in his hotel room, which most girls would take exactly the same way. and 2.) She mentioned the incident in public and made clear that she didn't like that kind of approach, apparently in terms about as respectful toward masculine attitudes as "freaks out about women power" is toward female ones.
The sxit-storm seems to be that everybody and his dog has been on the internet, expressing strong opinions on the matter, as it all reflects badly on atheism. Is there any connection? Heck, no, but that never stopped anybody making a fuss.

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14-07-2011, 05:23 AM
RE: ElevatorGate
The problem is more than about her being isolated in an elevator with a man at four in the morning after being at the pub. It's about the objectifying of women, that's what they're taking objection to.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

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14-07-2011, 08:39 AM
RE: ElevatorGate
(13-07-2011 07:11 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  Could I get, like, a one sentence TL;DR of this? I read two full stories and I still don't get it. Maybe I am just immune to stupid shit by now but... what the hell is going on exactly?

Guy asked girl for coffee and girl freaks out about women power? I don't get it? Shouldn't she take what happened as a compliment?

I met Rebeka Watson at Skepticon 3 last year and talked with her for a while. Because she is in the limelight and atheist conferences are dominated by white men (many of which are not used to being near women) she gets a lot of gross, aggressive offers. Frankly, she has good reason to be fearful and I'd be on edge in her position as well.

Did she over-react? Possibly. But she and Dawkins are nothing but human with the same faults we all share.

We may regret the resemblance this controversy may have with similar quarrels among the religious but this is what happens in human-made organizations. It just proves that religious organizations are human creations like atheist organizations.

I think the controversy does point out that we need more diversity in the atheist/freethought movements, rather than being collections of old white guys.

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14-07-2011, 08:46 AM
RE: ElevatorGate
(14-07-2011 05:23 AM)daemonowner Wrote:  The problem is more than about her being isolated in an elevator with a man at four in the morning after being at the pub. It's about the objectifying of women, that's what they're taking objection to.

"They" in this case being feminists - and Peterkin.
The other "they", who have come down like several tons of bricks, are objecting to women objecting to being objectified. Religion didn't cause misogyny - misogyny helped shape religion. Atheism won't cure misogyny - evolution will.

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14-07-2011, 09:23 AM
RE: ElevatorGate
(14-07-2011 08:46 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  
(14-07-2011 05:23 AM)daemonowner Wrote:  The problem is more than about her being isolated in an elevator with a man at four in the morning after being at the pub. It's about the objectifying of women, that's what they're taking objection to.

"They" in this case being feminists - and Peterkin.
The other "they", who have come down like several tons of bricks, are objecting to women objecting to being objectified. Religion didn't cause misogyny - misogyny helped shape religion. Atheism won't cure misogyny - evolution will.

I don't think evolution will "cure" misogyny... unless you are talking about cultural evolution. Culture makes religion and religion makes culture, one feeds and shapes the other. A major change in one affects the other... Most of the Law's in the OT were cultural in nature... later those religious laws shaped future cultures... like ours. Misogyny still plays a part of our culture... it still sells... thus it is going to be around till religion or culture get rid of it. A shortcut would be to get rid of religion or replace it with a new religion that has all "misogyny" removed. As long as it is accepted by the majority in a couple generations culture would "shift"... though I am sure misogyny would not be completely removed. Currently I see it as culture is changing with religion slow to follow. Anyway this is all my opinion so take it for what it's worth ;-)

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14-07-2011, 10:27 AM
RE: ElevatorGate
I would also like to point out that agree or disagree with what's going on, controversy or not, worthy of discussion or not - there are some absolutely disgusting comments on Rebecca Watson's youtube channel in regards to this incident. It's a shame people cannot just tell a person that they disagree with them, or that they're just wrong, without insulting them. I just have no words for this utter bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/user/rkwatson if you're interested.

People. Huh

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14-07-2011, 02:22 PM (This post was last modified: 14-07-2011 05:10 PM by Peterkin.)
RE: ElevatorGate
(14-07-2011 10:27 AM)TheSixthGlass Wrote:  I would also like to point out that agree or disagree with what's going on, controversy or not, worthy of discussion or not - there are some absolutely disgusting comments on Rebecca Watson's youtube channel in regards to this incident. It's a shame people cannot just tell a person that they disagree with them, or that they're just wrong, without insulting them. I just have no words for this utter bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/user/rkwatson if you're interested.

People. Huh

I listened to the whole thing and couldn't find any relatively disgusting comments, let alone absolutely disgusting ones. I honestly don't understand.
She did say "Thanks for not hiding your misogyny, so we can deal with it." ... to men who had responded to her earlier comment about being uncomfortable with certain kinds of attention. Now, if the video by the Glenn Beck clone (above) was typical, this response seems to me extremely mild. Not a single expletive; no yelling. I found that rather refreshing, actually.

Quote:I just have no words for this utter bullshit.
would be an example of disagreeing without insulting?

Edited to blush. This was misdirected.
This stands:

Thing is, when somebody expresses how they feel, i can share their sentiments, or not; i can ignore their statement or learn from it; i can have a positive or negative opinion of it. But it's not my place to judge whether their feelings are legitimate or appropriate; it's not my job to endorse or denounce how another person feels. If i do that, it means i'm invested in their emotional life: it means i'm laying some kind of claim to that person and encroaching on their autonomy. I don't consider that a healthy way to relate to strangers.

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14-07-2011, 02:40 PM
RE: ElevatorGate
I'm specifically referring to the comments that read "you're a cunt." and "how about a cup of coffee with a side of my dick?" and things of that nature. There are plenty of those on her youtube channel.

These are not comments that she is making in any videos, these are comments directed at her because of her video.

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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