ElevatorGate, Feminism, and all that good stuff...
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14-07-2011, 03:14 PM
RE: ElevatorGate
I deliberately ignored this thread because I don't like these internet sensations, but I want to comment now.

This woman didn't really do anything wrong, I would be pretty upset if a stranger asked me for 'coffee' at 4AM in an elevator. That is beyond creepy and inappropriate.

Perhaps other people and famous atheists commented on this because they felt that they needed to address sexism in the atheist community. I am well aware of the lack of females in our community, and although atheists are usually not sexist, you can be a total misogynistic jerk and be an atheist.

Now, I really don't think our community really has any major problems with sexism, but it's not a bad thing to bring awareness when it does happen.

To be honest, I think that atheists should be encouraging women to stick up for themselves and think critically. We need more women in our community!

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14-07-2011, 05:07 PM
RE: ElevatorGate
(14-07-2011 02:40 PM)TheSixthGlass Wrote:  I'm specifically referring to the comments that read "you're a cunt." and "how about a cup of coffee with a side of my dick?" and things of that nature. There are plenty of those on her youtube channel.

These are not comments that she is making in any videos, these are comments directed at her because of her video.

Oh, sorry - i didn't realize; didn't read. I suppose it shouldn't surprise me that such comments would be directed at her, though it does make me sad. Evolution has its work cut out.

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14-07-2011, 05:27 PM (This post was last modified: 14-07-2011 05:30 PM by DeepThought.)
RE: ElevatorGate
So many of you are taking the approach in the elevator as creepy but I saw it differently.

"Don't take this the WRONG way, but I find you interesting and would like to talk..."

I certainly wouldn't make a sexual advance on a stranger so the way I saw it - maybe this guy knew her from one of the shows, he probably wouldn't get a chance to talk to her in person again so he was genuinely interested in conversation. I agree there are better ways of going about it. Just from what was said you cant be certain it was sexual.

For the objectification bit. What if it was a 2 lesbians in that elevator?

So now i'm curious... How much of this 'objectifying' is complete bull?

I'm pretty disgusted at the comments I see appearing on her channel. She doesn't deserve all that.

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14-07-2011, 08:53 PM (This post was last modified: 14-07-2011 08:59 PM by Peterkin.)
RE: ElevatorGate
(14-07-2011 05:27 PM)DeepThought Wrote:  So many of you are taking the approach in the elevator as creepy but I saw it differently.

"Don't take this the WRONG way, but I find you interesting and would like to talk..."

"...so, can we meet in the coffee shop in the morning?"
"...so, can we go for a walk sometime?"
not "come to my room", because that is always the wrong way.
However, i don't know what she said to him and i don't know how he feels about it. That man is the only person in the world, besides Watson, qualified to comment on the incident. His intentions, tone, facial expression and gestures are unknown to all the men who took it upon themselves to give him the benefit of every possible doubt and condemn her.

Quote: For the objectification bit. What if it was a 2 lesbians in that elevator?
How would the lesbian making the approach know that the woman she was approaching is also a lesbian? Even if she did know, it would be rude in those circumstances.

Quote:So now i'm curious... How much of this 'objectifying' is complete bull?

I'm pretty disgusted at the comments I see appearing on her channel. She doesn't deserve all that.
It's the comments that are objectifying. The initial approach was merely inappropriate in time and place, and after hearing that this kind of thing makes her uncomfortable, overruling her expressed preference was rude.
The objectifying comes in where men, who have zero claim on her, tell a woman how she's allowed and not allowed to behave, what she's allowed and not allowed to say or feel in a situation they know nothing about; that she has no right to make the rules of her social contacts. Does it not sound a lot like a chorus of thwarted entitlement?
"If one of us crowns of creation favours you with his attention, however unwelcome, you have no right to reprimand him. Be flattered, you lesser life-form!"

Back in the days when women were not allowed to vote, they had the right to slap men who did what this guy did. Funny how every step forward contains its own step back.

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14-07-2011, 09:08 PM
RE: ElevatorGate
(14-07-2011 08:53 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  "If one of us crowns of creation favours you with his attention, you have no right to reprimand him. Be flattered, you lesser life-form!"

Really? I would be thinking just brush him off and move on. There are 2 sides to this. That's the only interesting part about this whole thing.

Your whole sentence up there is totally subjective where you filled in the blanks with your own thoughts/intentions/interpretations. As for the comments on her channel I suspect allot of that is purely reactionary crap that and would not reflect many peoples true attitudes and opinions. Allot of those people would still be young, hot-headed and have allot of growing up to do.

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14-07-2011, 10:57 PM
RE: ElevatorGate
I'm sorry, but we are all adults here, and we should all know what 'coffee' means. If a woman asked some guy the same thing, yes I think it would be slightly objectifying, she obviously does not know the man, and it's clear she only wants him for his body.

Unless you live under a rock, and never seen a single sitcom, you know exactly what 'lets go back to my room for coffee' means.

Anyways, it's startling to see how some people reacted to this. If you don't think this issue is a big deal, then why make a big deal out of it?

That guy on the other page who was screaming on his youtube video was insane. I'm pretty sure it didn't take a whole lot of freaking time out of people's day to comment on her story, famous or not, I just did it and it took me all of five minutes.

I think all of the people who are sticking up for this person, whom we don't know a damn thing about is absolutely ridiculous. It's not like she was carrying on about it making it a point of her episode, it just seemed as a... 'oh this happened to me, what a douche bag, right'.

It's concerning to see people treat her like this, it makes me wonder why they don't think she can have opinions on this. It kinda reminds me about how rape victims were treated back in the old days, like they were exaggerating or lying, they were often treated with shock and disgust.

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14-07-2011, 11:42 PM
RE: ElevatorGate
(14-07-2011 10:57 PM)monkeyshine89 Wrote:  I'm sorry, but we are all adults here, and we should all know what 'coffee' means. If a woman asked some guy the same thing, yes I think it would be slightly objectifying, she obviously does not know the man, and it's clear she only wants him for his body.

Unless you live under a rock, and never seen a single sitcom, you know exactly what 'lets go back to my room for coffee' means.

Anyways, it's startling to see how some people reacted to this. If you don't think this issue is a big deal, then why make a big deal out of it?

I'm just presenting the other side and I still don't buy the whole objectifying thing. Mostly because it's so subjective. It's all in how the other person decides in their mind to process it. Some words were said and in her mind and other peoples minds they are interpreted a certain way. The whole misogyny/rape scenario thing - don't you think that's going a bit too far?

I believe she has the right to express herself and her opinions/preferences as do you.

There are some things feminists do that irk me though, when she talked about the 'strawperson argument joke' it didn't make me laugh, it kind-of put me off. Considering she is one of the more extreme feminist types.

I think feminism taken to extremes doesn't help anyone. I'm for gender equality. Feminism seems to embody this "we are victims"/"we demand justice" mentality.
It's not a fight that can be won when the movement only applies to roughly 50% of the human race.

This whole feminism thing is quite a complex issue. Perhaps this is the only side of the whole rubbish spectacle that I find interesting. I certainly haven't got a solid grasp of all the concepts and I think there is allot of ground to cover in these subjects. Allot of this stuff might be psychologically hard-wired or heavily ingrained in our culture or both. It might even represent differences in male/female brain chemistry and wiring instilled during development as brains are bathed in differing concentrations of sex hormones combined with genetic factors.

How were our cultural attitudes shaped historically how did the changes occur? What role did evolutionary hard-wiring play in all that?

We still don't have a complete picture when it comes to our genes, psychology, environment, and sexuality. How does all that stuff interact and what is the best way to handle things? I don't know near enough to see things all that clearly.

I don't think anyone has clear answers to all this and that is why I think the femism movement is to some degree flawed. We shouldn't be looking at one side but both.

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15-07-2011, 12:17 AM
RE: ElevatorGate
The feminist movement is about women's equality, nothing more, in fact, if you believe that women should be considered equal to men, then congratulations you are a feminist.

People view feminism with the same glasses they view atheism, they make knee jerk judgements about it. It's funny because I hear some of the same things from ignorant people about it.

1. Feminists are just angry- Why not, anyone who thinks gender equality has been achieved is living under a rock. In most developed nations, women face discrimination and sexism, but this is not nearly as bad as those in other types of societies in this world. Hell, even in an equal society, women are still expected to deal with the children and be the primary chefs in the house. It's still infuriating to me that I'm seen as a baby factory to the majority of the world. Feminists have a fucking right to be pissed off about the situation, just like I think atheists are justified in their anger.

2. Feminists just want to be more powerful then men- Really? Where does anyone freaking say that, in any definition where does it say that? This is a common misconception and it's as ridiculous as saying atheists are just mad at god. Of course women some women want to be politicians, professors, and scientists, and some women want to stay home and take care of kids, one of the main 'ideas' of feminism is "The right to make choices".

3.Feminists play the victim card- This ties into what I said up top, anyone who thinks gender equality is achieved needs to get their head examined. How was she playing the victim card? How is her complaining that someone said something inappropriate to her playing the victim, even though it sounds melodramatic, she is the victim. If I told you that some random guy asked me to have sex with him in an isolated area in the middle of the night, would you think I was just playing the victim card when I said that what he was doing was inappropriate and creepy?

I understand that some 'feminists' like to act out and be angry at men, but then again, we have some 'atheists' that claim they are angry at god, we have idiots in every bunch.

Also, no I think it's a pretty accurate comparison to compare this to rape victims of yore. A woman would make a statement, and people would discredit her or slander her, which is exactly what is happening here.

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15-07-2011, 12:56 AM
RE: ElevatorGate
"The feminist movement is about women's equality, nothing more"

The main reason why I think feminist movement will never be very successful is because it's only looking at the women's perspectives. It doesn't take into account men and attitudes towards men and how that affects attitudes towards women.

Honestly I'm not trying to belittle what is happening to women in society because women have been getting the short end of the stick for a long time.

Please don't 'Strawperson' (haha fail joke Undecided) me. I never said "Feminists just want to be more powerful then men" or "Feminists are just angry" or that "gender equality is achieved."

If you want sweeping social change it needs to include everyone at once. Male circumcision? Female circumcision? Upbringing? What are we doing as a society that shapes the world?

Don't try telling me that only men play a part in moulding society to be the way it is. Sure men might have a larger influence in this but don't underestimate the role women play in propagating these attitudes and behaviours, and how women shape society. That's part of what I mean by victim mentality. If you are busy externalising the issues it takes away allot of influence you have in changing it. Please don't take this paragraph the one sided way. I know hot headed people are prone to taking these sort of paragraphs out of context.

You are not going to get far by shunning and hating on 50% of the world population.

"Also, no I think it's a pretty accurate comparison to compare this to rape victims of yore."
Rolleyes
In my opinion - this up there is not a winning battle - you won't get very far here... I think the best way forward is in understanding both sides and coming to some sort of mutually beneficial arrangement. Kind-of like a healthy relationship.

Peace

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15-07-2011, 01:31 AM
RE: ElevatorGate
I wasn't trying to... non denominational world citizen straw sentient being you.

I was pointing on the common misconceptions of feminism, I really don't see our conversation as a debate in so much as it's a discussion. Not everything on the internet is a debate.

Believe me, I have no beef with you, I find your posts usually informative and funny, you seem like a nice...guy (I'm going to assume you are a man)

Actually I agree whole heartedly with you about how we need to investigate the societal perspective of men being the primary bread winners, the draft and so on. I believe that when women demand equality they need to embrace the responsibility of it. I think that we need to put more emphasis on how we are all human. To be honest as I mature I see less and less differences in the way men and women think as I travel the world, humans are humans, no matter how you slice it.

I am also totally against male circumcision, personally I think it should be called out on what it really is, male genitalia mutilation.

I also don't dismiss the fact that men run a large part of the world, I am a member of many male dominated societies (the military and apparently atheism). I don't even begrudge men who are in power simply because they are men.

I don't shun 50% of the population either, if I really hated men, why do you think I would have gotten married?

See, you made an assumption about me and feminism there as well. Again that's another misconception about feminism, that if you are a feminist you must hate or shun men.

Also, define a mutually beneficial relationship between men and women as a society.

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