ElevatorGate, Feminism, and all that good stuff...
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15-07-2011, 10:58 AM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2011 02:58 PM by Peterkin.)
RE: ElevatorGate
(14-07-2011 09:08 PM)DeepThought Wrote:  
(14-07-2011 08:53 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  "If one of us crowns of creation favours you with his attention, you have no right to reprimand him. Be flattered, you lesser life-form!"

Really? I would be thinking just brush him off and move on.


But that's exactly what she did! As i said, the original approach was merely inappropriate; presumptuous at most. Nothing came of it.
The misogynist nonsense, including the - admittedly interpreted - statement above, came as a huge over-reaction from people who were not present, after she told them: "Don't do that." Its their judgement that's objectifying.
They derailed the issue to the (supposedly wronged) man's intentions - which are totally irrelevant. It is, and always was, about the woman's right to say: "Don't."

Quote:There are 2 sides to this. That's the only interesting part about this whole thing.

Exactly. The two sides of the incident are Watson and the man in the elevator. The third side is all the other people who rush in to attack the woman and defend the man (who hasn't been hurt or threatened) and the fourth side is the other people who rush to Watson's defense. The third and fourth have no legitimate role - and neither do we.

Quote: Your whole sentence up there is totally subjective where you filled in the blanks with your own thoughts/intentions/interpretations.
In response to your question, yes. And entirely about the comments you yourself considered over the top.

Quote: As for the comments on her channel I suspect allot of that is purely reactionary crap that and would not reflect many peoples true attitudes and opinions. Allot of those people would still be young, hot-headed and have allot of growing up to do.
A fine excuse for public abuse of a total stranger. Wonder why so few of them gave Watson the same leeway.


I keep coming back to this, not to be contentious but to be clear.
If you say: "Please don't talk to me," and i respect you, then I won't talk to you, period.
You don't have to justify the request, or earn the right to make it: you already have that right - for whatever reason, or no reason.
My motives in wanting to talk to you are irrelevant; the number of people who might want to talk to you are irrelevant; why they might want to is irrelevant. If you don't want to be talked-to, that's it. About the only exception i can think of to break that rule is to say: "Your pants are on fire." (only if true, of course)

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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15-07-2011, 08:20 PM
RE: ElevatorGate
Glad monkeyshine was here to lay down the law =p It's important to remember that feminists aren't all in the same camp. There's a huge difference between feminism and radical feminism. Yes I definitely agree that women bring each other down as well (I'd like to say it's mainly traditional minded women, but the modern woman is very judgemental to other women too).

This woman here is well known, she blogs and does videos. Men will come to her and hit on her often enough (women too of course). All she did was address on her channel the fact that she doesn't want her fans doing this. The guy was most likely a fan of hers'. Being famous or in some way in the lead of something gives you an idol status, and that's just not comfortable. She's not someone who randomly got in an elevator and happened to be hit on, she's someone who is a rather known atheist at an atheist convention being hit on. This was most likely not the only time.

You can say that feminism is a losing battle, but your reasoning DeepThought has stated atheism isn't going to win either. Most special interest groups look out for their group first.

This got a lot of pages while I was off working. Hopefully by this point we all agree that the only real issue here was a bunch of other people complaining. It's her channel and she can complain about anything she wants, everyone else seems to anyway.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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16-07-2011, 05:20 AM (This post was last modified: 16-07-2011 08:24 PM by DeepThought.)
RE: ElevatorGate
(15-07-2011 01:31 AM)monkeyshine89 Wrote:  To be honest as I mature I see less and less differences in the way men and women think as I travel the world, humans are humans, no matter how you slice it.

I see that too, though I think that happens more as you get older. I think there are differences physical and psychological which are perhaps more pronounced from 12-25yo - if there weren't the world obviously wouldn't be shaped the way it is. Allot of feminists like to play things like man=woman and I get what they are saying on one level but its not actually the case if you get right down to the details. I am for gender equality where it is possible.

(15-07-2011 01:31 AM)monkeyshine89 Wrote:  I don't shun 50% of the population either, if I really hated men, why do you think I would have gotten married?

See, you made an assumption about me and feminism there as well. Again that's another misconception about feminism, that if you are a feminist you must hate or shun men.

Well some of your previous posts were quite strongly worded so I made an assumption based on that.
(15-07-2011 12:17 AM)monkeyshine89 Wrote:  Also, no I think it's a pretty accurate comparison to compare this to rape victims of yore. A woman would make a statement, and people would discredit her or slander her, which is exactly what is happening here.
Also the whole "Those people in the YouTube comments thread are equivalent to rapist sympathizers and misogynists." To me that seems to be more on the hardcore feminism part of the spectrum.

(15-07-2011 01:31 AM)monkeyshine89 Wrote:  Also, define a mutually beneficial relationship between men and women as a society.

Well a healthy relationship is where you complement each others strengths and compensate for the others weaknesses. You build each other up so it's not parasitic where one party is taking advantage of another party.

(15-07-2011 08:20 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Glad monkeyshine was here to lay down the law =p It's important to remember that feminists aren't all in the same camp.

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(15-07-2011 08:20 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  You can say that feminism is a losing battle, but your reasoning DeepThought has stated atheism isn't going to win either. Most special interest groups look out for their group first.
No, you don't understand what I was trying to say. Feminism only takes into account 50% of the world population It doesn't matter what feminists do this will always be the case. Because of that feminism doesn't take into account the effects on men. Men need to be included in this movement for it to be successful though then it would no longer be feminism. I think feminism by definition focuses too narrowly on a small range of issues to be successful in their objectives.

I suppose I could clarify this point further but i'm rushing through this.

(15-07-2011 10:58 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  The misogynist nonsense, including the - admittedly interpreted - statement above, came as a huge over-reaction from people who were not present, after she told them: "Don't do that." Its their judgement that's objectifying.
They derailed the issue to the (supposedly wronged) man's intentions - which are totally irrelevant. It is, and always was, about the woman's right to say: "Don't."

I'm not buying the objectifying bit. Its just absolute garbage to me. How can you make that claim based on what was written? You need to be know what is going on in those peoples heads to make a claim like that. Do you have a mind reading device that I don't know about?

If I say "Bitch, want a coffee?" or "Get your ass back in the kitchen and make me some pie!" or "Hey WOMAN, go make babies!" How do you know what is really going on in my head at the time?

(15-07-2011 10:58 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  
Quote:There are 2 sides to this. That's the only interesting part about this whole thing.

Exactly. The two sides of the incident are Watson and the man in the elevator. The third side is all the other people who rush in to attack the woman and defend the man (who hasn't been hurt or threatened) and the fourth side is the other people who rush to Watson's defense. The third and fourth have no legitimate role - and neither do we.

Well I ignored the your #1 and #2 on purpose. #3 and #4 involve group psychology and are more interesting to me since more people are part of that.

(15-07-2011 10:58 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  
Quote: As for the comments on her channel I suspect allot of that is purely reactionary crap that and would not reflect many peoples true attitudes and opinions. Allot of those people would still be young, hot-headed and have allot of growing up to do.
A fine excuse for public abuse of a total stranger. Wonder why so few of them gave Watson the same leeway.

Ok so what does this mean? Am I now a rapist sympathizing, objectifying, misogynist supporting, excuse making asshole?

I based what I wrote from personal experience and youtube demographics.
http://www.youtube.com/t/advertising_targeting
I was just looking at the comments thinking "they look like they are writing this out of anger/annoyance directed at her and it mostly doesn't reflect what those people think in general about women"

Of course in your mind it could mean "these people are all objectifying rapist sympathizers and male chauvinist pigs." and case is closed. It's a perfectly valid opinion.

(15-07-2011 10:58 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  I keep coming back to this, not to be contentious but to be clear.
If you say: "Please don't talk to me," and i respect you, then I won't talk to you, period.
You don't have to justify the request, or earn the right to make it: you already have that right - for whatever reason, or no reason.
My motives in wanting to talk to you are irrelevant; the number of people who might want to talk to you are irrelevant; why they might want to is irrelevant. If you don't want to be talked-to, that's it. About the only exception i can think of to break that rule is to say: "Your pants are on fire." (only if true, of course)

Your conception of human social behavior is patently absurd and I'll prove it. I don't want you to reply to me or quote me on this thread PERIOD. No quoting me, and no replying. I want you to respect that.

By the way... your pants are on fire.
[Image: pants.jpg]

If I don't want people to talk to me i'll lock myself in my room and just wont come out. That is my choice. It's also my right to stop clicking on this thread or visiting this forum. Once I go out in public I can't stop people from talking to me. It's called free speech! The right to be a dick and/or vagina.

I can't stand PC bullshit. I'm sorry. I have a 0 tolerance policy. Especially when there are so many atheists ready to jump up your ass and tickle your tonsils just to prove how politically correct they are. Edit: when I said "so many" I mean few.. More like "too many."

Edits were mostly spelling and grammar, and some clarifications.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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16-07-2011, 05:54 AM
RE: ElevatorGate
(16-07-2011 05:20 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  No, you don't understand what I was trying to say. Feminism only takes into account 50% of the world population It doesn't matter what feminists do this will always be the case.

Is there still research going on into eliminating men from the life cycle? Being a man with three daughters and no sons I am not sure if I should feel threatened by such research or not.
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16-07-2011, 06:51 AM
RE: ElevatorGate
(16-07-2011 05:54 AM)angry_liberal Wrote:  Is there still research going on into eliminating men from the life cycle? Being a man with three daughters and no sons I am not sure if I should feel threatened by such research or not.
LOL I know a guy that has 5 daughters, 3 to one woman and 2 to his current wife! Talk about flipping the coin! That's a 3.125% probability if I got my maths right.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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16-07-2011, 11:44 AM
RE: ElevatorGate, Feminism, and all that good stuff...
My statement in that was that there are multiple camps. Not every feminist wants men dead. I can be militaristic sometimes, but I would say I have a pretty good understanding of both sides. Anytime we talk of oppression though, the oppressed pointing out what oppresses them, makes the oppressors feel uncomfortable it's an obvious fact just look through the history of oppression. Plenty of people within feminism do think about both sides, but the goal is in coming up with answers to fix the problems of one side. We don't all say men should have no parental rights. I almost feel like I'm repeating myself in these responses @_@ What makes you think I'm so hard-lined Deep? I do fight for men's parental rights by the way when I can, though it's not my main goal. I think it's horrible how one sided the law takes divorce issues.

My work with transsexual issues goes along the same stuff. You do realize that I have had plenty of people explain to me that I shouldn't use the womens restroom because I would make others uncomfortable? That's just saying that they don't care if I'm uncomfortable.

Also on the topic of anti-male policies, the last one I heard was near the beginning of stem cell research. They were discussing finding a way to splice two eggs together which would result in a female baby and make a man's role in reproduction unnecessary. That was a pretty long time ago, maybe 4 or 5 years. I'm entertained by this stuff but it's not like I'm seriously after it. Well, sometimes I am =p

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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16-07-2011, 08:16 PM
RE: ElevatorGate, Feminism, and all that good stuff...
(16-07-2011 11:44 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Plenty of people within feminism do think about both sides, but the goal is in coming up with answers to fix the problems of one side.

Yes we do agree for the most part except I don't think you can come up with answers to fix just one side. It needs to be both sides simultaneously. The sexes are too intermingled. There are too many interactions going on to isolate just one sex. That's the only point where we differ. No need to repeat yourself.

(16-07-2011 11:44 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  What makes you think I'm so hard-lined Deep? I do fight for men's parental rights by the way when I can, though it's not my main goal. I think it's horrible how one sided the law takes divorce issues.

Lilith, I don't think you are hardlined.. Smile You seem more soft lined to me. I was thinking along like this:
(16-07-2011 05:20 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  Also the whole "Those people in the YouTube comments thread are equivalent to rapist sympathizers and misogynists." To me that seems to be more on the hardcore feminism part of the spectrum.

(16-07-2011 11:44 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  My work with transsexual issues goes along the same stuff. You do realize that I have had plenty of people explain to me that I shouldn't use the womens restroom because I would make others uncomfortable? That's just saying that they don't care if I'm uncomfortable.

Yeah, that sucks.

Peterkin: If you really aren't replying to this thread because of what I wrote up there that is just absurd (and maybe amusing). How can you allow another person to tread on your rights to express yourself freely in a public forum?

I might have the ability to moderate on this forum but I don't use that to stop others from expressing themselves. Unless they are a David Mabus sockpuppet or similar. So if the manly pink/purple letters scare you don't let them. I will stand by your freedom of speech/expression rights on this forum even if it's against me personally and makes me uncomfortable.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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20-07-2011, 12:11 PM (This post was last modified: 20-07-2011 12:15 PM by myst32.)
RE: ElevatorGate, Feminism, and all that good stuff...
ElevatorGate everywhere.... be sure to watch the begging section at the end.




“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.” Orson Welles
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