Emergent Complexity
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12-04-2013, 02:41 PM
RE: Emergent Complexity
(12-04-2013 02:14 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 01:55 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I have no idea what that means. What can your god do?

Emerge from the eternal asshole...

Consider I still can't quite grasp what the fuck that means either. I mean in all seriousness, that would be the most basic bit of what he is saying by defining it as having been an eternal emergence...but it does not compute.

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12-04-2013, 02:53 PM
RE: Emergent Complexity
(12-04-2013 02:14 PM)morondog Wrote:  
Quote:What can your god do?

Emerge from the eternal asshole...

Clearer ? Just me being a dick. Unfortunately only a finite one.
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12-04-2013, 03:03 PM
Re: Emergent Complexity
You're as eternal as dicks come.
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12-04-2013, 03:05 PM
RE: Emergent Complexity
(12-04-2013 01:49 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 01:35 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Complex - a whole made up of complicated parts
Complicated - difficult to analyze, understand or explain.

In other words, the more we understand, the less complicated and thus the less complex something becomes.

We describe something as complex because of the parts that it contains that we find difficult to understand.

Once we understand those complicated parts, the item in question becomes less complex by definition.

A Ford model T is less complicated to US because we have a better understanding of how the mechanics of the engine works. To the guy who is driving the covered wagon all his life, the model T is more complicated.

The number of unique parts to a whole doesn't make it more complex.
It's our understanding of how those parts relate to each other that determines complexity.

A trash dump has a city full of unique items, chemicals & bacteria mixing in the soil.
Is a trash dump complex or simple ?

Do you see what I'm saying ?

I see what you are saying, but I think you are conflating complex with complicated. They are different concepts.


Let me simplify this complicated equation

Complex - a whole made up of complicated parts
Complicated - difficult to analyze, understand or explain.

Complex - a whole made of (difficult to analyze, understand or explain) parts

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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12-04-2013, 03:51 PM
RE: Emergent Complexity
(12-04-2013 01:55 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 01:52 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  God is eternal emergence.

I have no idea what that means. What can your god do?

The universe self generates intellect. That intellect is finite because the universe is finite. Eternally self generating intellect would not be finite, but infinite. Now as to what that eternal intellect can do, I don't know how to answer that question. I suppose you could answer it by asking yourself what the intellect of this universe can do if it continues on for another billion years. Whatever the eternal intellect could do would look like magic to a billion year old intellect generated by this universe.
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12-04-2013, 04:06 PM
RE: Emergent Complexity
(12-04-2013 03:51 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 01:55 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I have no idea what that means. What can your god do?

The universe self generates intellect. That intellect is finite because the universe is finite. Eternally self generating intellect would not be finite, but infinite. Now as to what that eternal intellect can do, I don't know how to answer that question. I suppose you could answer it by asking yourself what the intellect of this universe can do if it continues on for another billion years. Whatever the eternal intellect could do would look like magic to a billion year old intellect generated by this universe.


Well, sort of.
We have one example of the universe generating intellect. Us.
Our intellect is an emergent property of our evolved brains.

We have evidence of some lesser intellects, all of them evolved here on earth through Darwinian processes.

There is no evidence of any other intellect. Anywhere.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-04-2013, 04:20 PM
RE: Emergent Complexity
(12-04-2013 04:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 03:51 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The universe self generates intellect. That intellect is finite because the universe is finite. Eternally self generating intellect would not be finite, but infinite. Now as to what that eternal intellect can do, I don't know how to answer that question. I suppose you could answer it by asking yourself what the intellect of this universe can do if it continues on for another billion years. Whatever the eternal intellect could do would look like magic to a billion year old intellect generated by this universe.


Well, sort of.
We have one example of the universe generating intellect. Us.
Our intellect is an emergent property of our evolved brains.

We have evidence of some lesser intellects, all of them evolved here on earth through Darwinian processes.

There is no evidence of any other intellect. Anywhere.

There is evidence but it is ambiguous. The apparent fine tuning of the cosmological constant for instance. That suggests an intellect, but it also suggests a multi-verse. Evolution is another example because evolutionary systems don't appear to come into existence via happenstance{although it is logically possible that it could). To replicate the phenomenon the evolutionary system must be designed.
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12-04-2013, 04:23 PM
RE: Emergent Complexity
(12-04-2013 04:20 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  To replicate the phenomenon the evolutionary system must be designed.

Are you saying that when we try to replicate evolution it must be designed ? Because yeah, we don't like hanging around a few billion years. Natural evolution doesn't have a problem with that though.
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12-04-2013, 04:25 PM
RE: Emergent Complexity
(12-04-2013 04:20 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 04:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  Well, sort of.
We have one example of the universe generating intellect. Us.
Our intellect is an emergent property of our evolved brains.

We have evidence of some lesser intellects, all of them evolved here on earth through Darwinian processes.

There is no evidence of any other intellect. Anywhere.

There is evidence but it is ambiguous. The apparent fine tuning of the cosmological constant for instance. That suggests an intellect, but it also suggests a multi-verse. Evolution is another example because evolutionary systems don't appear to come into existence via happenstance{although it is logically possible that it could). To replicate the phenomenon the evolutionary system must be designed.

Well, we've been over this. I disagree with your assertions because there is no evidence. The 'fine-tuning' argument is just silly.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-04-2013, 04:37 PM
RE: Emergent Complexity
Fucking guy... Big Grin

You're not talking "eternal emergence," 'cause that's fucking dumb. You're talking "perpetual emergence." "God," however - as is commonly understood, anyway - is being, not becoming. There is no identity function for what you describe.

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