Emergent Complexity
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
12-04-2013, 12:37 PM
RE: Emergent Complexity
(12-04-2013 12:25 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 12:05 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I wasn't trying to muddle the issue but rather make the point that Rahn's claim that complexity is that which we don't understand and simple is that which we do understand is wrong. I don't have an issue with what you've said about complexity above. Surely you would agree a covered wagon is less complex than a Ford Model T, which is less complex than a Nissan Maxima.

They are complex unequally because they contain systems that each successive one does not.

I still have no idea what point you're actually trying to get at. Emergence and complexity are compatible with a view of the universe that contains no supernatural entity, no conscious entity, and need nothing more than the existence of the universe.

The point of this thread was to be a discussion about what emergent complexity is....not a discussion about God. Necessary because folks like Bucky were confusing emergent complexity with ID when as you point out above it suggests no need for a god. It's not a concept embraced by ID'st.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-04-2013, 12:39 PM
RE: Emergent Complexity
(12-04-2013 12:37 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 12:25 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  They are complex unequally because they contain systems that each successive one does not.

I still have no idea what point you're actually trying to get at. Emergence and complexity are compatible with a view of the universe that contains no supernatural entity, no conscious entity, and need nothing more than the existence of the universe.

The point of this thread was to be a discussion about what emergent complexity is....not a discussion about God. Necessary because folks like Bucky were confusing emergent complexity with ID when as you point out above it suggests no need for a god. It's not a concept embraced by ID'st.

So, how do you go from that, to a god coming into existence with the universe at the beginning of time?

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-04-2013, 12:46 PM
RE: Emergent Complexity
(12-04-2013 12:24 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 12:19 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I don't think God or reality came into existence at the big bang or any other moment. I think both have always existed....both are eternal.

Well then you need to provide some kind of counter argument not to the laymen on this forum but to Steven Hawking, Neil DeGrasse Tyson, Carl Sagen and far more than can be listed here. Your out of your league on this one.

They are talking about the universe while I am talking about reality. The universe isn't eternal which is why the intellect it self generates is finite. However I am suggesting that if reality has self generated intellect for eternity, then you have something that looks a lot like God.

Hawkings and DeGrass-Tyson would probably concede that the observable universe is just a small subset of reality. I don't think Sagan would though.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-04-2013, 01:06 PM
RE: Emergent Complexity
(12-04-2013 12:27 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 12:19 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I don't think God or reality came into existence at the big bang or any other moment. I think both have always existed....both are eternal.

Given that time would have started at the Big Bang, the Universe has indeed existed as long as there has been time. But you add in "god" along with it. I have no idea how but I also have no idea what your "god" is, what it does, or what evidence you have of it.

You'll need to actually tell me what your god is, besides the fact that you believe it came into being with the universe... Drinking Beverage ...I got that bit already.

I don't believe God came into existence with the universe. I never said that. You just assumed that I did because in doing so you create an easy target. You've created a straw man.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-04-2013, 01:31 PM
RE: Emergent Complexity
(12-04-2013 01:06 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 12:27 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Given that time would have started at the Big Bang, the Universe has indeed existed as long as there has been time. But you add in "god" along with it. I have no idea how but I also have no idea what your "god" is, what it does, or what evidence you have of it.

You'll need to actually tell me what your god is, besides the fact that you believe it came into being with the universe... Drinking Beverage ...I got that bit already.

I don't believe God came into existence with the universe. I never said that. You just assumed that I did because in doing so you create an easy target. You've created a straw man.

Okay...go on. Tell me what it is...

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-04-2013, 01:35 PM
RE: Emergent Complexity
(12-04-2013 12:05 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I wasn't trying to muddle the issue but rather make the point that Rahn's claim that complexity is that which we don't understand and simple is that which we do understand is wrong. I don't have an issue with what you've said about complexity above. Surely you would agree a covered wagon is less complex than a Ford Model T, which is less complex than a Nissan Maxima.

Complex - a whole made up of complicated parts
Complicated - difficult to analyze, understand or explain.

In other words, the more we understand, the less complicated and thus the less complex something becomes.

We describe something as complex because of the parts that it contains that we find difficult to understand.

Once we understand those complicated parts, the item in question becomes less complex by definition.

A Ford model T is less complicated to US because we have a better understanding of how the mechanics of the engine works. To the guy who is driving the covered wagon all his life, the model T is more complicated.

The number of unique parts to a whole doesn't make it more complex.
It's our understanding of how those parts relate to each other that determines complexity.

A trash dump has a city full of unique items, chemicals & bacteria mixing in the soil.
Is a trash dump complex or simple ?

Do you see what I'm saying ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-04-2013, 01:49 PM
RE: Emergent Complexity
(12-04-2013 01:35 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 12:05 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I wasn't trying to muddle the issue but rather make the point that Rahn's claim that complexity is that which we don't understand and simple is that which we do understand is wrong. I don't have an issue with what you've said about complexity above. Surely you would agree a covered wagon is less complex than a Ford Model T, which is less complex than a Nissan Maxima.

Complex - a whole made up of complicated parts
Complicated - difficult to analyze, understand or explain.

In other words, the more we understand, the less complicated and thus the less complex something becomes.

We describe something as complex because of the parts that it contains that we find difficult to understand.

Once we understand those complicated parts, the item in question becomes less complex by definition.

A Ford model T is less complicated to US because we have a better understanding of how the mechanics of the engine works. To the guy who is driving the covered wagon all his life, the model T is more complicated.

The number of unique parts to a whole doesn't make it more complex.
It's our understanding of how those parts relate to each other that determines complexity.

A trash dump has a city full of unique items, chemicals & bacteria mixing in the soil.
Is a trash dump complex or simple ?

Do you see what I'm saying ?

I see what you are saying, but I think you are conflating complex with complicated. They are different concepts.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-04-2013, 01:52 PM
RE: Emergent Complexity
(12-04-2013 01:31 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 01:06 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I don't believe God came into existence with the universe. I never said that. You just assumed that I did because in doing so you create an easy target. You've created a straw man.

Okay...go on. Tell me what it is...

God is eternal emergence.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-04-2013, 01:55 PM
RE: Emergent Complexity
(12-04-2013 01:52 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 01:31 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Okay...go on. Tell me what it is...

God is eternal emergence.

I have no idea what that means. What can your god do?

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-04-2013, 02:14 PM
RE: Emergent Complexity
(12-04-2013 01:55 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 01:52 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  God is eternal emergence.

I have no idea what that means. What can your god do?

Emerge from the eternal asshole...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: