Emergent Complexity

[JAH]

Heywood (I am tempted to call him something else but resisted) has his own "conception of god". One is amazed that someone cannot deduce from their own argument that god and religion are human constructs when they state it themselves.

Truly odd such as Egor's new religion. If you can make it up than cannot we all. We can make up any god or religion we like.

I am of course partial to Rastafari.

[Heywood Jahblome]

(12-04-2013 07:05 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  

(12-04-2013 05:46 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The claim that the universe is solitary and has the properties it has because of happenstance is ridiculous.

How can you say it's ridiculous when the term universe connotes the totality of exsitence! You are making up a new definition for what everyone else understands the universe to be - "the broadest definition of universe is that it is simply everything"

As for the "properties" it has I say they simply "are", you ascribe a designer/emergent intelligence... when the music stops we are back to arguing God (whatever you may want to call it) vs no God.

It's kind of interesting to see all the mental and semantic gymnastics you are performing to obscure this point, very entertaining.

That definition of universe you are using is becoming archaic. It is not uncommon now to hear cosmologists or physicists talk about our universe existing among many other universes. The multi-verse is the new word for the concept you are describing. If it helps you understand my position better, just figure that whenever I use the term "universe", I am referring too the observable universe...and not the whole enchilada that makes up all of reality.

[Heywood Jahblome]

(12-04-2013 07:24 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  

(12-04-2013 05:39 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I understand my conception of God is very different then most theist. Most theist believe God is an intellect that created reality. I find the notion of God outside reality to be ridiculous. God is reality. Reality is emergent so God is emergent.

I give you one honesty point for saying it right...."Your conception of god"
God is something you conceived of

And now that we have this base for how you conceive of a god, can you also conceive of another god that exists or came about in much the same way your god did.

Given that you think that one god can exist, is there not room for another ?

Perhaps we can conceive of a thousand more and describe them all, each one, in exquisite detail. When we do this, we must also admit to ourselves that WE are the creators of gods.

Most theist will claim that God explains reality, I am different because I claim reality explains God. I didn't make up reality, I didn't make up emergent complexity. I did not make up the fact that reality self generates intellect. I did not make up the notion of reaility existing outside our universe. My only assumption that I did "make up" is the notion that reality could be eternally self generating intellect....and I don't think that notion is farfetched.

For me to be an atheist, I would have to make up the notion that reality does not eternally self generate intellect, but rather only generates intellect in finite short lived bursts.

[ClydeLee]

(12-04-2013 09:05 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  For me to be an atheist, I would have to.... not stick to made up ideas.

That's all you would have to do.You are just adding additional steps without much but assertions where concrete answers do not exist at this time or some that do but you disagree with.

[Heywood Jahblome]

(12-04-2013 09:32 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  

(12-04-2013 09:05 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  For me to be an atheist, I would have to.... not stick to made up ideas.

That's all you would have to do.You are just adding additional steps without much but assertions where concrete answers do not exist at this time or some that do but you disagree with.

What additional step am I adding? Don't be nebulous with your criticism...spell it out.

[Adenosis]

(12-04-2013 09:05 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Most theist will claim that God explains reality, I am different because I claim reality explains God. I didn't make up reality, I didn't make up emergent complexity. I did not make up the fact that reality self generates intellect. I did not make up the notion of reaility existing outside our universe. My only assumption that I did "make up" is the notion that reality could be eternally self generating intellect....[b]and I don't think that notion is farfetched.[/b]

Which you believe for stupid reasons, and it is far fetched. If there was anything even hinting at such a thing it might not be so far fetched, but there isn't. Just a combination of the imagination and wishful thinking.

and don't say you believe for good reasons, that's nonsense. You haven't given one good reason the whole time you've been here.

(12-04-2013 09:05 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  For me to be an atheist, I would have to make up the notion that reality does not eternally self generate intellect, but rather only generates intellect in finite short lived bursts.

For you to be an atheist, you need to stop making shit up that sounds good to you and believing in it. Be more rational, take a class in logic. The universe, at least in it's current form, has a beginning. That is all we have observed, this universe, and if that's all there is then it's not eternal. Your assuming there is more. Your even assuming there’s an overarching intelligence. Quite the leap don't you think?

Short bursts of life is pretty much all that the evidence of reality suggests can occur. If the universe never ends, then perhaps an advanced civilization could live forever, but they still evolved. It's still natural, it's not supernatural woo like your suggesting.

To be a theist, keep making shit up. Continue not to care if what you believe is true.

[Heywood Jahblome]

(14-04-2013 01:28 AM)Adenosis Wrote:  Short bursts of life is pretty much all that the evidence of reality suggests can occur. If the universe never ends, then perhaps an advanced civilization could live forever, but they still evolved. It's still natural, it's not supernatural woo like your suggesting.

There is a difference between never ending and never having a beginning or end. I should not have to point that out to you.

[Bucky Ball]

(12-04-2013 06:16 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  

(12-04-2013 06:01 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Still require time. Emergence is a process, not timeless being, (see the wrticle from Stanford YOU YOURSELF posted). No philosopher of theologian would agree. BlowJobis asserting NO ONE else in the entire world would agree with. Say he came here to "challenge us'. Looks like he's "challenged".
Oh, that's right, it's Spring. He only ansers the easy ones. He seems to think if he asserts something with no support, it just makes it so.
The moon is made of green cheese, BJ.

If I recall correctly in the science subforum you claimed that we might someday have observational evidence of a multi verse. Presumably you were talking about finding artifacts left in the cosmic background radiation that could only be the result of a collision between our universe and another. If our universe exists in a multi-universe in which universes can move and collide, then time or some analogue also exists outside our universe.

"Might" is the operative term. You assert shit with no evidence. I wait for it.
Usually people who operate thinking they have something totally unique they see, that everyone else has missed, are socially isolated, nuts, and mentally unballanced. Are you nuts, BlowJob ?

There is no proof anything exists outside this universe, and even if there is some found, it does not lead to god(s), only a larger reality. Spacetime, until it's validated to be so, exists only in this universe. You assume ALL the multiverse operates the way this one does. No evidence for that. Other universes may have different dimensions. None of this leads to the god(s). There could be multiple levels of multiverses. Nothing about that leads to time dependent gods, such as yours, (which need improvement). You STILL have not explained how your god "emerges" without time.

I repeat, BlowJob : the moon is made of green cheese, (because I say so).

[smidgen]

I was going to say something about the original subject of the thread but all that seems to happen around hear is fighting. Why do such intelligent people feel like they have to fight about everything?

[houseofcantor]

(14-04-2013 05:59 AM)smidgen Wrote:  I was going to say something about the original subject of the thread but all that seems to happen around hear is fighting. Why do such intelligent people feel like they have to fight about everything?

What are you saying? Wanna fight?