Empathy?
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07-05-2014, 09:17 PM
RE: Empathy?
(07-05-2014 06:20 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 06:18 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  You are confused about how we can call you a prick and still say that morality is subjective. There is still no contradiction. You are a smart guy jeremy, at this point its hard not to feel like your misinterpretation of the argument is willful.

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07-05-2014, 10:00 PM
RE: Empathy?
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07-05-2014, 11:39 PM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2014 08:25 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Empathy?
(07-05-2014 05:49 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  ...

what obligates me to be civil for the mutual benefit of my community?

What Huh or who?

We obligate ourselves though our systems of governance.

Do you consider yourself to be part of e.g. the TTA community?

If so, please fulfill your obligations.

If not, what are you doing here?

If your answer is... I'm here to change society from within, then cool, welcome to the community and your new set of obligations.

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08-05-2014, 01:52 AM
RE: Empathy?
(07-05-2014 05:49 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  what obligates me to be civil for the mutual benefit of my community?

Counter Question if I may: Do you believe for you yourself to be civil REQUIRES an obligation either "divine" or otherwise?
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08-05-2014, 05:04 AM
RE: Empathy?
Most people are free to behave any way they want, but there are conseqences from others who are also free to behave any way they want.

Imagine a 3D mirror with a full representation of yourself. Would you punch yourself knowing that you will be punched ? Your negative actions directly hurt yourself and hopefully you begin to treat that image of yourself with kindness and compassion, unless you simply have no desire to live a happy life by constantly causing yourself pain.

Empathy is usually the result of someone who can imagine what another person is experiencing and cares enough to help that person just as if that person was the 3D mirror image of himself.

Put yourself in someone elses shoes
Treat others as you wish to be treated

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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08-05-2014, 07:05 AM
RE: Empathy?
(08-05-2014 05:04 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Most people are free to behave any way they want, but there are conseqences from others who are also free to behave any way they want.

Imagine a 3D mirror with a full representation of yourself. Would you punch yourself knowing that you will be punched ? Your negative actions directly hurt yourself and hopefully you begin to treat that image of yourself with kindness and compassion, unless you simply have no desire to live a happy life by constantly causing yourself pain.

Empathy is usually the result of someone who can imagine what another person is experiencing and cares enough to help that person just as if that person was the 3D mirror image of himself.

Put yourself in someone elses shoes
Treat others as you wish to be treated

I know what empathy is. Your illustration is one of the best ive heard. And I agree.

My point is, is that if moral relativism is true, there is nothing obligating me to be empathetic. I have broken no law or moral duty which says I should. And no one can say that I have. Nor can anyone charge me with doing anything wrong or evil for such words to make sense, require that there exist some ideal standard of behavior by which acts are measured.

Take God out of the picture and like Ivan said, all things are permitted. This is simply one of the implications of an atheistic view of reality.

But most atheists do believe certain things are really wrong i.e. discriminating against atheists for no other reason that they are atheists.

In thinking this, they are not thinking as moral relativists but moral realists. Even the majority of philosophers, though they be non-theistic actually are moral realists. Go figure!!!
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08-05-2014, 07:12 AM
RE: Empathy?
(08-05-2014 01:52 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 05:49 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  what obligates me to be civil for the mutual benefit of my community?

Counter Question if I may: Do you believe for you yourself to be civil REQUIRES an obligation either "divine" or otherwise?

What you ask is do people have to believe in God in order to be civil. The answer is no. Some atheists I know are civil as well as empathetic.

I have never said a person has to believe in God to be civil or empathetic.

What I have said is that when an atheist says all morality is relative, they are acting inconsistently with their moral relativism when they denounce religion as being evil.

If they were consistent they would not say religion is evil or that rape is wrong. Evil and wrong can only be meaningfully used if there is a standard of morality one can appeal to to judge whether an act conforms or fails to conform to said standard.
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08-05-2014, 07:38 AM
RE: Empathy?
(08-05-2014 07:12 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Evil and wrong can only be meaningfully used if there is a standard of morality one can appeal to to judge whether an act conforms or fails to conform to said standard.

And that standard is what?
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08-05-2014, 07:48 AM
RE: Empathy?
(08-05-2014 07:12 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(08-05-2014 01:52 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Counter Question if I may: Do you believe for you yourself to be civil REQUIRES an obligation either "divine" or otherwise?

What you ask is do people have to believe in God in order to be civil. The answer is no. Some atheists I know are civil as well as empathetic.

I have never said a person has to believe in God to be civil or empathetic.

What I have said is that when an atheist says all morality is relative, they are acting inconsistently with their moral relativism when they denounce religion as being evil.

If they were consistent they would not say religion is evil or that rape is wrong. Evil and wrong can only be meaningfully used if there is a standard of morality one can appeal to to judge whether an act conforms or fails to conform to said standard.

Why can't we create our own standard of morality based upon agreed principles? By that standard, I can call someone who commits crimes for religious reasons wrong and a criminal.

Isn't that exactly what we do?
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08-05-2014, 07:48 AM
RE: Empathy?
(08-05-2014 07:05 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  My point is, is that if moral relativism is true, there is nothing obligating me to be empathetic. I have broken no law or moral duty which says I should.

Nothing "obligates" you to have empathy. You may not even have any from birth.

The law forces you to act within the set limits of conduct, whether you have empathy or not.

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